Moderator: Mark Templet
Forgive me is I am beating a dead horse...
What is the future of the ROCOR when it unites with the MP? I am sure there are those left within the ROCOR who are traditionally minded. What about them? The day after this union they will find themselves in communion with not only the MP, but the EP, etc. How come more people in the ROCOR are not vocal against this reunion?
Gregory
Gregory wrote:How come more people in the ROCOR are not vocal against this reunion?
Because it is the correct thing to do.
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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
From the way the bishops are talking, establishing communion is not a matter of if, but when. This has been apparent for years, and at the very least is should have been apparent for 4 years or more, ever since ROCOR publically asked Serbia to help them establish such a communion with the MP. In other words, they are already set on their course, and there seems to be no turning back. Perhaps the Priests and others who disagree with the union are simply waiting and praying, and figure that causing a fuss will do more harm than good. From what I've heard, when the union does happen, many (though certainly not the majority) of the priests and lay people in ROCOR, and perhaps even a bishop, will join other jurisdictions.
EDIT--And I just realised that I shouldn't be posting these types of posts (not to mention that this is my second post today), so, um, ignore this 
Gregory,
The traditionalists will remain in the Church with the MP.
As I posted many months ago, the true intent of the roac and the other schismatic malcontents is becoming more and more well known. They are only concerned with power and authority, quoting canons, saints, and Fathers like Pharisees, demanding adherance to the letter, but not the spirit of the canons or our Church Fathers.
Look how the roacs turn on each other; like a pack of wolves fighting for the title of alpha-male. It is clear that they have no intentions of any Church unity, even within themselves.
Nicholas is but one example; I may disagree with him, but what was posted on that website was just trashy, among other things...
paleocon wrote:As I posted many months ago, the true intent of the roac and the other schismatic malcontents is becoming more and more well known. They are only concerned with power and authority, quoting canons, saints, and Fathers like Pharisees, demanding adherance to the letter, but not the spirit of the canons or our Church Fathers.
Look how the roacs turn on each other; like a pack of wolves fighting for the title of alpha-male. It is clear that they have no intentions of any Church unity, even within themselves.
Nicholas is but one example; I may disagree with him, but what was posted on that website was just trashy, among other things...
See this is the sad thing throughout this whole ROAC thing. It will never really die because those who hate the ROAC will keep it alive and well. People talk of trash and that which is evil, but they do not leave it be and let the recuperation start.
Those who were quoting canons and throwing around the letter of the law have left the ROAC, as in, no longer members or a part of the church. It is clear that you have no true knowledge of what has gone on in Colorado by your blissful ignorance of the truth of the situation and how it truly has affected us here. The parishes that remain in the ROAC have built a bond not because we are forced to, but because we DESIRE the unity that you so boldly assume we do not have.
It might be best next time before you spout off inconsistencies and a lack of charity you might just refrain from posting anything at all.
As proof of your ignorance I post these facts for you.
If you look at any of the truly ROAC websites, wether pwesonal or eccclesiastical, you will see the unity of which I speak. (note: As has been stated in several places, the website that Gregory still operates, roacamerica.org is NOT a ROAC website, personal, offical or otherwise as he is no longer a member of ROAC.)
If you talk to anyone in ROAC (God forbid you talk to the "enemy") you will see that we are not symbiotic slaves to one man whose iron fisted will is our destiny.
You can see on any of the parish websites pictures of the unity that the ROAC now shares after this whole fiasco.
You seem to think that now that the monastery of the Dormition has cut communion through various means that we no longer have any idea of how to revive ourselves, you are wrong, very wrong. We have a kinship between the parishes, the monastery, the Haitian Church, that we did not have 3 months ago. we are growing, we are vibrant, we are stronger and we are one in faith and spirit.
There are only a few of the pictures illstrating what I am taking about. I think, however, you can see how your assumptions are clearly unfounded.
From what I've heard, (and I've heard much), there are several possibilities regarding the fate of ROCOR administration if/when reunion happens.
The first thing that most people here (I mean this forum) apparently think is that our bishops will sign a sheet of paper & say "Your the boss now..." or something like that. Then in comes a swarm of "clergy" from "over there" to take over our churches and kick out our priests and begin corrupting all and sundry by their false messages of salvation.
Ain't gonna happen.
Administratively it will be impossible for the MP to run ROCOR parishes from Russia. Most parishes in the US (I do not know about South American, European or Australian parishes) are incorporated, and actually don't belong physically to the ROCOR Synod. Therefore, it is the parish's choice ultimately of who is the priest there, what is done with the actual church building, etc. The MP will have no say in matters of church property of incorporated parishes unless individual parishes let it. This is a big decision that would be taken on by parish councils, etc. Besides that it means, if a parish decides to leave on a whole, it can take the building with it.
The reunion will be more spiritual than anything else. ROCOR will just become a self-ruling portion of the Russian Church, just like Japan is now. There will be free exchanges of anything to do with church life (be it clergy, books, learning materials, supplies, etc) that is beneficial to both sides. Also property seized by authorities for the MP will be sorted out... do not think that has been swept under the rug. Also locations with both MP & ROCOR will be working together to build a stronger Orthodox community.
Quite honestly, (and I say this while being a loyal ROCORist), if the MP was an evil opportunist, what the heck could it want ROCOR for??? We're such a pain to deal with, first of all. 2nd, yes, we do have some icons & relics that are highly prized, but they've got loads more. Our properties? We've already seen that in other countries, they don't our permission to snatch it. Besides that, with the amount of $ they have coming in, they could probably buy up twice the amount of property, and build bigger churches. Do they need us to obtain visas? Not anymore... if they are truly agents, there are easier avenues to get here than through us. Do they want money from us? Take into account how many people from ROCOR are already spending their hard earned dollars, pesos, euros whatever on MP products. Think of how many ROCOR parishes already send $ over there to help rebuild churches, feed & cloth & house the needy, etc etc. Do they need to feel validated, acknowledged by us to be sure that everyone accepts that they are a real church? They’ve already got a bunch of patriarchs outside their borders acknowledging them, do you really think they need a nod from 93rd St. in NYC to be seen as legit? If they want to control us somehow? To what end for goodness sake? To what purpose? To somehow turn us into their little minions? Get real. I think by now they would realize that we're to paranoid to ever let that happen.
Dear Ania --
Thanks for the reply. Being in communion, however, implies that one accepts the teaching and practices of the church in which one is now in communion with. For example, do most members of the ROCOR accept and condone the use of the New Calendar and the EP's ecumenical activities?
Gregory,
The traditionalists will remain in the Church with the MP.
As I posted many months ago, the true intent of the roac and the other schismatic malcontents is becoming more and more well known. They are only concerned with power and authority, quoting canons, saints, and Fathers like Pharisees, demanding adherance to the letter, but not the spirit of the canons or our Church Fathers.
Look how the roacs turn on each other; like a pack of wolves fighting for the title of alpha-male. It is clear that they have no intentions of any Church unity, even within themselves.
Nicholas is but one example; I may disagree with him, but what was posted on that website was just trashy, among other things...
Dear Paleocon --
Honestly, I don't get this impression at all. There is a big difference between those who follow abbot Gregory and those who are under the care of Met. Valentine.
Can you please expand on your statement that traditionalist will remain in the Church with the MP? What is traditional about being in communion with the EP?
Dear Juvenaly --
Nice pics.
Gregory
