Matthewites and Chrysostomites

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Justin Kissel

Matthewites and Chrysostomites

Post by Justin Kissel »

I don't like calling the GOC "Chrysostomites," but I thought it only fair in this case, since the other name was "Matthewites". I'd like to post a strange, crazy theory here, and perhaps someone can tell me why it would never work. (at the very least maybe we can all learn a bit more about the various churches).

It seems that the Matthewites won't simply acknowledge the hierarchy of the GOC, because of how that hierarchy became bishops to begin with (ROCOR Bishops--including a Bishop who had New Calendar parishes under him--making the candidates bishops in a somewhat secret fashion, after which the ROCOR synod would not voice approval of the consecrations for a time). And, of course, Archbp. Chrysostom and his bishops are not about to claim that they were never bishops, or that the original consecrations were uncanonical. So what can be done?

I think that both groups need to forgive and forget (I can't believe I just said that!) What I mean is, there are lots of examples from history where a bishop had questionable origins. Pat. Meletios of Antioch, for instance, was placed in the Antiochian See by heretics. Afterwards, he affirmed Orthodoxy, and so some accepted him as Orthodox (Sts. Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Basil the Great, etc.), while others did not accept him (St. Athanasius, the Church at Rome).

In the end, from an Orthodox perspective, I think it is safe to say that Meletios was accepted as a legitimate hierarch. He even presided over some sessions of the 2nd Ecumenical Council (and would have presided over the entire Council, except that he died). It is true that some did not go along with what was happening, but then some (e.g., Rome) didn't accept the 2nd Ecumenical Council either, and were not in communion with Saints like Gregory the Theologian. The point is, the Church (and a good many Saints) accepted Meletios, in spite of his seemingly uncanonical (as a point of fact, plainly heretical) origins.

Here's how I think this could be applied to today. The Matthewites and Chrysostomites could both acknowledge the validity of the other Church: that each hade legitimate bishops today, that each held to an Orthodox faith today, that each followed the canons today, and that each had sacramental and virtuous grace today. This is not to say that past transgressions are unimportant: it is only to say that love and peace in the Church is more important when two Churches have the same faith, the same sacraments, and the same Lord.

хорист
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Re: Matthewites and Chrysostomites

Post by хорист »

Justin Kissel wrote:

Here's how I think this could be applied to today. The Matthewites and Chrysostomites could both acknowledge the validity of the other Church: that each hade legitimate bishops today, that each held to an Orthodox faith today, that each followed the canons today, and that each had sacramental and virtuous grace today. This is not to say that past transgressions are unimportant: it is only to say that love and peace in the Church is more important when two Churches have the same faith, the same sacraments, and the same Lord.

Replace "Matthewites and Chrysostomites" with "ROCOR and MP," read the paragraph, and tell me what you think! :wink:

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Actually, I would have absolutely no problem accepting the MP and ROCOR union in that way... if the MP wasn't in bed with the ecumenists ;) For me (and I only presume to speak for myself, of course), the MP will have to do a lot more than leave the WCC and say Sergianism is a bad thing to demonstrate that they are of an Orthodox mindset. But then, perhaps there are major doctrinal differences between the Matthewites and Chrysostomites that I am not aware of!

Austin Doc
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Post by Austin Doc »

Dear Justin,

There are not major doctrinal matters seperating the Matthewites and the "Chrysostomites/Kiousites". I say this knowing that in my ignorance there could be Matthewites who might differ with me, but I think in general, there are no big differences. The differences are mostly in the ecclesiological events, and in terms of Apostolicity.

I personally favor a dialogue between the two. Actually, I go a step further, and say that I favor an eventual union of the two...or, should I say three? Lamians/Kiousites/Matthewites.

However, I don't think this would ever happen. The Lamians and the Kiousites probably won't patch it up, and all sides like to point fingers at the Matthewites. Too bad we just can't acknowledge the good in each other, mutually forgive, and be of One Union.

in Christ,
Nectarios

John Haluska
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Post by John Haluska »

It is very rude, not to mention, very disrespectful, to address ANY Hierarch, Clergyman, in the aforementioned manner, using the disrespectful appendages "ite" or "ites".

The usage of any Hierarch's name should be prefaced by his actual title, Metropolitan, Archbishop, Bishop. Unless I am mistaken, The usage of "last" names with respect to any monastic is not done. When they become monastic, they take on another name, and are not associated with their "last" names any more.

This type of crude labelling is rampant everywhere and does absolutely nothing else but cast aspersions on the people proffering such naming.

It smacks of "familiarness" and " encourages disrespect.

Didn't the Apostle Paul say something to the effect, "Am I of Paul, am I of Apppolos?" In other words, the usage as presented automatically engenders the "One is of this Hierarch or that Hierarch" mentality.

There is entirely too much of this and it accomplishes absolutety nothing.

Hierarchs and Clergymen have been ordained and as such deserve, if nothing else, the proper usage of titles and names. Hierarchs, especially, are "EPISCOPOS"; 'epi' meaning around, and 'scopos' meaning seeing; literally overseeing all. (Sorry about the Greek translation.)

Hierarchs are a direct continuation of the Apostles and as such should be accorded due Honor.

I have seen an actual list of PROPER names for Hierachs and Clergy. If any one has this, please 'post' it to this area as it would be most helful in the future in the PROPER naming of Hierarch and Clergy.

Please show PROPER respect for Hierarchy and Clergy.

Thank you,

John

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TomS
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Post by TomS »

John wrote:

Didn't the Apostle Paul say something to the effect, "Am I of Paul, am I of Apppolos?" In other words, the usage as presented automatically engenders the "One is of this Hierarch or that Hierarch" mentality.

St. Paul also said not to cause schism in the Church. Did these groups listen to that part of scripture?

----------------------------------------------------
They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."

John Haluska
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Post by John Haluska »

My specific reply was directed towards the derogatory use of the appendages "ite, ites" with respect to denoting Hierarchs or Clergy.

Was it not?

Any other word besides "Hierarch" could have been analogically used. Sorry for the confusion.

John

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