Orthodox Ethos-Fr Peter Heers

[SavaBeljovic]

Incorruption can be a punishment too, people forget.

 

Not only can it be, but this is the default interpretation in the absence of some physical cause of failure to decompose (like bog bodies).

As I have it--and this comes from WO sources so take that as you will--when a body is exhumed incorrupt it is normal in Orthodox countries to perform prayers for the forgiveness of sins and rebury it for a period before checking if it helped. It is taken as a sign that the earth would not accept the body because of unconfessed/unrepentant sins. A sign that the soul needs prayers.

Only in rare cases is incorruption taken as a mark of holiness, usually with a specific symbolism such as the ear of St. Chrysostom which is incorrupt where St. Paul whispererd his teachings. The people to whom this is applied are always those already believed to be saints for other reasons.

 

That's actually very interesting, I did not know that about the prayers for forgiveness of sins! With bog bodies, I studied those heavily when I was younger because how they come about is quite interesting, it's also rare for bog bodies to form due to the exactness of conditions.

With incorruption, I remember hearing about how the Romanian Church (historically? Currently?) will only canonize a Saint if their relics are incorrupt. But I do agree that incorruption shouldn't always be taken as a sign of Holiness, the Papists have "incorrupt Saints" (and I'm not talking about the Madame Toussad's reliquaries), we also have plenty of Saints whom we know are Saints that do not have incorrupt relics.

[eish]

Are the conservative ecumenists entirely the Orthodox Ethos group ? Or are there OTHER factions as well that would fall into this category ??

 

By "conservative ecumenism" I refer to socially, ecclesiastically, and theologically conservative beliefs which nevertheless end up being ecumenistic, usually unintentionally so. Under this I include the entire fighting from within movement and others.

E.g.: Elder Iakovos of Evia, Elder Ephraim of Arizona, Fr. Peter Heers, David Erhan, etc. If someone believes that Orthodoxy and heresy are not one, in that he does not believe we are one with monophysites, papists, protestants, muslims, etc., yet at the same time he believes that Orthodoxy and heresy are one, in that he stays under those who claim themselves not to be any of the aforementioned but commune monophysites, commemorate the pope, marry parishioners to protestants, preach that the god of Islam is the God of Christianity, etc., then I would classify that as conservative ecumenism.

Elder Iakovos interpreted the ban on praying with heretics so strictly that he would not bless food in the presence of a visiting papist who is taking an interest in Orthodoxy, yet at the same time he would interpret it so loosely that he could stay under heretical ecumenist bishops and patriarchs who concelebrate with papists. That is perhaps the most illustrative example of what I mean by conservative ecumenism.

[Suaidan]

Who is "Almond"?

[Barbara]

It's short for Almond Roca, which i was calling the member RocaRemnant. Just a joke !

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I think it really comes down to this. The "fighting from within" squad will ultimately fail. Why? Because they do not trust Christ or His saints or the Holy Spirit. The patristic witness on fleeing heretics and not communing with them is clear. So by them knowingly remaining they are actually worse off than those who are truly ignorant on these things. It will be sad to watch, but as long as they remain that is their course. I believe deep inside they know it. But they are letting worldly fears hold them back. They know how the Church handles these issues, but they don't want to go all the way. They are terrified, but are trying to keep their composure. Their holding back may even encourage those in World Orthodoxy to seek out True Orthodoxy because I have no doubt folks in World Orthodoxy will see their hypocrisy. It shines like the sun.

[Barbara]

Very interesting discussion here ! So educational for everyone looking into a more serious Orthodox affiliation than just the World Orthodox or the Orthodox Ethos [sounds like Athos-! I know they are fans of a few Athonite elders, but aren't the ones all New Calendar and under the EP ?]

There are SO MANY comments to make or questions to ask that i want to return to this to do justice to all the insights here. The Forum is fortunate to have so many perceptive and well-informed members !

I think we should have a separate thread for Matushka Olga. That way it would separate out the information about her so that internet passer-bys could easily read and see the truth about her and all the false 'idols' that have been set up by the OCA and unfortunately, the Orthodox Ethonites [!] who follow some of the OCA's pet causes.
I think I saw that the Ethonites also regard Matushka Olga as a saint, if anyone knows for sure, please state that.
I'll start that thread tomorrow.

[eish]

The "fighting from within" squad will ultimately fail. Why?

 

I have a different perspective to add. "Fighting from within" is not a phrase I have ever heard from World Orthodox. I'm sure it originated there with some elder or other telling the zealous not to leave. However, I only ever hear it from True Orthodox saying it will not work. I have never heard them say that they must fight their hierarchy from within or without. I have heard the opposite teaching explicitly. What I hear them say is that they must do nothing and wait for a council*. Sure, those people who speak up to the extent that Fr. Peter does, exist, but they are extremely rare even among the traditionalists. Those can be counted almost on one hand, and they are merely speaking against past patriarchs (and sometimes rival synods) while carefully avoiding any mention of their own current hierarchs. For which Fr. Peter got suppressed anyway.

The people fighting from within are not losing because of how they are fighting, or why, even though those would have mattered. Nobody is actually fighting from within. Not even trying to. They sit around and wait. What percentage of people whom we claim to be "fighting from within" have ever sent a letter to their bishops, or tried to initiate a conversation?

And as an aside, is it because they know how that would work out?

*It has comedic potential--"To ourselves and those who teach as we do, ANATHEMA!¨