Renaissance: Sculptures, Worship of Man, Perversions, and -isms.

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jdigrande
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Renaissance: Sculptures, Worship of Man, Perversions, and -isms.

Post by jdigrande »

Cyprian:

The Roman sculptures from the 4th century do depict the Trinity. But sculptures are not allowed in Orthodox Church by way of the Council of Trullo (the 6th Council) three hundred plus years later.

My only possible objection to the Trinity ikon is the insertion of a triangle within the ikon. It is a matter of debate whether this is a Latin innovative insertion into an otherwise Orthodox ikon. I also have no problem with the Trinity ikon (from St. Andrew Rublev) which is another symbolic rendering of the Trinity via the three angels visiting St. Abraham and Sarah.

Christ was also energetically and symbolically depicted as a fish in many catacomb paintings in the 1st and 2nd centuries. Do you know of any ikons of fish in GOC churches nowadays? I do not think so. There are none in RTOC churches that I have been in.


A sculptural aside

Christ was 3D rendered sculpturally (according to Eusebius) in the 4th century outside of a church in the East but 3D sculpture was forbidden in 681 in the East. It was ignored in the West where 3D sculptures adorned churches from 681-1285..., mainly on the exteriors of churches. After 1285 many of these 3D sculptures moved into Latin churches.

If the Latins come back to the Church in the future, will the TOC's demand the destruction of all Latin 3D sculptures starting with the Rondanini Pieta? Do we take the hammer to the Rondanini Pieta first or do we first take care of the demons Apollo and Athena first?

Although 3D sculptures of Christ inside or outside of Churches in the East were forbidden after 681, in absolute hypocrisy, all three Romes (Constantinople, Rome and Moscow) both before and after 681 littered their cities, palaces and domains with 3d sculptures of the demons Apollo, Athena, Zeus etc. (St. Athanasius the Great: "the gods of the pagans are demons.") But these demons were not allowed in churches. Plethon composed a liturgy to the demon Zeus in the 15th century and was invited to take the boat to Florence in 1439 to the Council with the Tsar and his bishops. Was he ever condemned for this liturgy by the Greek Church?

I bring the idea of 3D sculpture up in that you brought up the 4th century Roman sculpture as proof of ikons related to the Trinity. But it was not an ikon, but a sculpture on a tomb. I have seen 3d sculptures of saints in Kiev (Vladimir and Anthony and Theodosius of the Caves). All three would never be allowed in Orthodox Churches today.

It is a slippery, sculptural slope into the possible realm of the Orthodox version of the Taliban (who recently destroyed all the Buddhas in Afghanistan) if we ever get temporal power again in this world.

Would the Rondanini Pieta be safe from the future theological hammers of the TOC's in that it is in a museum in Florence along with the Trinity sculpture of the 4th century which in a Roman museum?



Christ verbally circumscribed the Essence of God as Father throughout the New Testament. The Creed verbally repeated what Christ did.

In ikons from Sinai in the East, God is energetically circumscribed as Father in the form of the hand of God in the right hand corners of many ikons. The Essence of the Holy Spirit is energetically written on ikons in the form of a dove.

Because of the extent of the destruction of ikons from 717-843 we do not know the extent of the Trinity ikons within the eastern half of the church prior to 843.

The Ancient of Days appears energetically as the 2nd Person of the Trinity (the Son) to St. John at Patmos and as God the Father energetically to St. Daniel in the Old Testament Both can and should be venerated. That is my view.

But my point is that there are scholars who disagree about this. To really understand, agree or disagree with their point of view they must be read. I am not an expert. It would be helpful if a bibliography of both sides would be inserted on this site so that the normal reader here can consider both sides (or more sides than that) and decide for themselves. I have read a few books on both sides but am not an expert.

It is apparent you have studied this issue more than me but I am not sure you are an expert and/or have published works supporting your view which have been reviewed by other historical experts in this field.

As far as ikonoclasm (the destruction of ikons and persecution of people and churches because of those ikons), it is a stretch to extend that term (the destruction of ikons) to some of the usual suspects involved on this site in my view.

Cyprian, Thank you for taking the time to present your point of view. I learned a great deal reading it.

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Maria
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Re: Renaissance: Sculptures, Worship of Man, Perversions, and -isms

Post by Maria »

jdigrande wrote:

Cyprian:

The Roman sculptures from the 4th century do depict the Trinity. But sculptures are not allowed in Orthodox Church by way of the Council of Trullo (the 6th Council) three hundred plus years later.

My only possible objection to the Trinity ikon is the insertion of a triangle within the ikon. It is a matter of debate whether this is a Latin innovative insertion into an otherwise Orthodox ikon. I also have no problem with the Trinity ikon (from St. Andrew Rublev) which is another symbolic rendering of the Trinity via the three angels visiting St. Abraham and Sarah.

Christ was also energetically and symbolically depicted as a fish in many catacomb paintings in the 1st and 2nd centuries. Do you know of any ikons of fish in GOC churches nowadays? I do not think so. There are none in RTOC churches that I have been in.


A sculptural aside

Christ was 3D rendered sculpturally (according to Eusebius) in the 4th century outside of a church in the East but 3D sculpture was forbidden in 681 in the East. It was ignored in the West where 3D sculptures adorned churches from 681-1285..., mainly on the exteriors of churches. After 1285 many of these 3D sculptures moved into Latin churches.

If the Latins come back to the Church in the future, will the TOC's demand the destruction of all Latin 3D sculptures starting with the Rondanini Pieta? Do we take the hammer to the Rondanini Pieta first or do we first take care of the demons Apollo and Athena first?

Although 3D sculptures of Christ inside or outside of Churches in the East were forbidden after 681, in absolute hypocrisy, all three Romes (Constantinople, Rome and Moscow) both before and after 681 littered their cities, palaces and domains with 3d sculptures of the demons Apollo, Athena, Zeus etc. (St. Athanasius the Great: "the gods of the pagans are demons.") But these demons were not allowed in churches. Plethon composed a liturgy to the demon Zeus in the 15th century and was invited to take the boat to Florence in 1439 to the Council with the Tsar and his bishops. Was he ever condemned for this liturgy by the Greek Church?

I bring the idea of 3D sculpture up in that you brought up the 4th century Roman sculpture as proof of ikons related to the Trinity. But it was not an ikon, but a sculpture on a tomb. I have seen 3d sculptures of saints in Kiev (Vladimir and Anthony and Theodosius of the Caves). All three would never be allowed in Orthodox Churches today.

It is a slippery, sculptural slope into the possible realm of the Orthodox version of the Taliban (who recently destroyed all the Buddhas in Afghanistan) if we ever get temporal power again in this world.

Would the Rondanini Pieta be safe from the future theological hammers of the TOC's in that it is in a museum in Florence along with the Trinity sculpture of the 4th century which in a Roman museum?



Christ verbally circumscribed the Essence of God as Father throughout the New Testament. The Creed verbally repeated what Christ did.

In ikons from Sinai in the East, God is energetically circumscribed as Father in the form of the hand of God in the right hand corners of many ikons. The Essence of the Holy Spirit is energetically written on ikons in the form of a dove.

Because of the extent of the destruction of ikons from 717-843 we do not know the extent of the Trinity ikons within the eastern half of the church prior to 843.

The Ancient of Days appears energetically as the 2nd Person of the Trinity (the Son) to St. John at Patmos and as God the Father energetically to St. Daniel in the Old Testament Both can and should be venerated. That is my view.

But my point is that there are scholars who disagree about this. To really understand, agree or disagree with their point of view they must be read. I am not an expert. It would be helpful if a bibliography of both sides would be inserted on this site so that the normal reader here can consider both sides (or more sides than that) and decide for themselves. I have read a few books on both sides but am not an expert.

It is apparent you have studied this issue more than me but I am not sure you are an expert and/or have published works supporting your view which have been reviewed by other historical experts in this field.

As far as ikonoclasm (the destruction of ikons and persecution of people and churches because of those ikons), it is a stretch to extend that term (the destruction of ikons) to some of the usual suspects involved on this site in my view.

Cyprian, Thank you for taking the time to present your point of view. I learned a great deal reading it.

Jdigrande:

WARNING TO ALL: I initially posted the Aleteia web link below in the Women's Forum so that men would not be tempted by the blasphemous nude 3-D sculpture of Christ shown in the article. Yes, Christ was perfect man, but to glorify His humanity as the Neo-Arians do can easily lead to perversion as we must also never forget His Divinity, which is before all time and is everlasting.

Do not watch the video, which displays this sculpture from all angles. No doubt perverts delighted in making this video. https://aleteia.org/2018/03/28/this-3d- ... 7M.twitter

If I had a choice, I would take a saw and save only the bust of this sculpture.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

jdigrande
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Re: Renaissance: Sculptures, Worship of Man, Perversions, and -isms

Post by jdigrande »

Not sure what this has to do with me? I have not nor will post any photos on this site.

Justice
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Re: Renaissance: Sculptures, Worship of Man, Perversions, and -isms

Post by Justice »

jdigrande,

Statues aren't banned in Orthodoxy. They may not be traditional, but the church has never declared them to be heretical. You call statues the "demons of Apollo" implying they shouldn't be used as they are of pagan origin. Should we then not use halos to accompany the saints in mosaics and frescos? Considering they are of pagan origin as well.

Fr. Mark Templet of ROAC gave a great answer in this thread.

http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... it=statues

Last edited by Justice on Fri 27 July 2018 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jdigrande
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Re: Renaissance: Sculptures, Worship of Man, Perversions, and -isms

Post by jdigrande »

Just for the record on why 3d sculptures and even bas relief sculptures in church is not an Orthodox idea (including the one that Cyprian used to prove the veneration of the Trinity in the 4th century in Rome).

Prayer requires spiritual confrontation from us all. When one is confronted one does not worry or even notice the 3d effects of the one doing the confrontation. Orthodox Ikons ideally confront a person, helping them to pray, meditate on the life of the saint, God or the Theotokos depicted. They involve a one to one confrontation, a spiritual confrontation.

3d or 2d (bas relief) sculptures do not confront us spiritually. It is literally impossible for them to compete on a spiritual basis. Whether the sculptures are fully clothed or not makes no difference. That is why any Orthodox Church is a far more spiritually sublime atmosphere for one to repent than any Latin heretical church. And that seems to be the guiding force about the forbidding of 3d sculpture in church which was ordered at the 6th Council.

What stone sculpture does do is unite public outdoor spaces far more effectively than even the greatest ikon. That is why the bronze St. Constantine was mounted on a column in his city after his passing. This sculpture was not ripped down after the 6th Council. Why? There must have been a good reason but I do not know why. Perhaps someone has the record of the decision made there to enlighten us.

St. Vladimir in bronze in both Moscow and Kiev unites a natural and architectural space for the people of both cities. So I do not see myself as a Neo Arian for believing this. I feel that stone/wood/bronze sculpture has its place in museums from the Incas to the Latins. I do not understand the desire to destroy it.

Why not redirect such destructive energy to a task that is literally on our doorsteps. Christ said to take the beam out of one's own eye before taking the speck out of another.

St. Theodosius the Great destroyed the Great library and all its esoteric demonic knowledge in the late 4th century. He was a Spaniard by birth and also presided over the 2nd Council. But he left the attack on the pagan demons unfinished. He had the power to eliminate the demonic names Romulus and Athena from two of the great cities of the ancient world but he did not. Maybe it was left to the Greek TOC in these perilous times to undertake this job. After all the Orthodox have no problem renaming cities: Leningrad to St. Petersburg. And Lenin was only an evil man. Both Romulus and Athena were demons according the St Athanasius The Great.

I think that it is absolutely humiliating for a TOC Archbishop to preside over a city with a demonic name. For 800 years the Parthenon was the Church of the Theotokos but it was returned to its pagan, demonic roots when the Masons took over the city in the 19th century (or was it earlier?).

Why doesn't the Greek TOC launch a drive to rename the city after the Theotokos and retake the Parthenon and return it to the splendor that God and the Theotokos deserve? Storm the Acropolis. It would be a great way to unify those in the warring churches to retake the city by charging up the hill and retaking it. Blood might be spilled.

Is this city the city of the demon Athena or the city of the Theotokos? It is a simple question that the hoi polloi of the city need to consider. I am sure if the Greek TOC lead the charge, they will gain converts. And that might lead to a total destruction of the demonic Greek sculptures in the city.

The trouble is that the normal hoi polloi of the city have been raised on demonic fairy tales of Homer from birth. What came first: Homer or Christ?

But it would be a great exercise in one's real values. It is the beam in the eyes of the Greeks. After it is out then they can turn their clear eyes to other targets: the "Roman" Pieta (fully clothed) or the Rondanini Pieta- partially clothed. Why not the City of St. Peter and Paul versus the demonic wolf god, Romulus? There are about 20,000 Romanians working like Mexicans in the city. Perhaps they can lead the charge: turn the Colliseum into another church of the Old Martyrs? Why not?

jdigrande
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Re: Renaissance: Sculptures, Worship of Man, Perversions, and -isms

Post by jdigrande »

Thank God that when the Homeric Greeks invaded and landed on my father's island, they named the main city Syracusa (Swamp). God makes Swamps. Athena is the name of a demon. :). The demon of Reason.

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Re: Renaissance: Sculptures, Worship of Man, Perversions, and -isms

Post by Barbara »

What island would that be, JdiGrande ? I am trying to think but am tired...!

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