Old Believers and Old Calendarists

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Barbara wrote:

Back to Bp Daniel for a minute. So he was allowed to continue as an Old Believer through his 5 years of Jordanville ? How did he manage to attend services, then ?

Assuredly, it's better that this Old Believer, formerly known as Dmitri Borisovich Alexandrov, joined Rocor than elsewhere. But I thought I read what you wrote, NCYet, earlier, as saying that he was allowed to stay in the Old Rite UNTIL
graduation, when he would have been expected to join the Nikonian Church.

Bp Daniel's case is puzzling indeed. Then there is his student, a relatively recent Bp John, consecrated in 2008 and given the title of 'of Caracas'.

Caracas was where St John Maximovitch's parents lived. As an aside, why were they not allowed to come to America, especially after St John was named Acting and then Ruling Archbishop of San Francisco ? Another puzzling aspect to Rocor history. Did they repose in Venezuela ? Does anyone visit their graves and take care of the site ? Do priests serve pannikhidas for them, the noble parents of the Wonderworker of the age ?

Another connection between St John and Old Believers is in the fact the iconographer Pimen Sofronov - who taught the future Bp Daniel of Erie and worked with him on various churches - was selected to fresco the Saint's crypt underneath Holy Virgin Cathedral. Personally, I would have much preferred that Nikolai Zadorozhny, an émigré from the Harbin region, had been awarded this honor, as I vastly prefer his style.

Why would an Old Believer - no matter how skilled an iconographer - been chosen ? Again puzzling.
I don't even care for Pimen Sofronov's icons adorning the walls and ceiling of St John's original burial place. They are OK but rather cold. One does not feel quite right looking at them ; rather, a little alienated. To me, it dimmed a little of the light in that holy room, now fixed up as a proper chapel. That is only my reaction ; doubtless many others like Sofronov's work.

I've got to be honest Barbra, I am having a difficult time understanding your confusion. Why are you fretting over these things?

Allow me to use an illustration. Let's same, for some reason, all of the Russians left Orthodoxy for a few hundred years. But, at the same time, all of them maintained their traditions exactly as they are today. The some of them joined Orthodoxy again. Would they be considered a whole other religious system, operating within Orthodoxy like the Trojan House? Of course not! It would simply be the Russian practice of Orthodoxy.

In the same way, the Old Believers which have re-joined Orthodoxy are first and foremost Orthodox Christians who have maintained some older traditions. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Bishop Daniel was a bishop for those who used the Old Russian Rite, as Greek bishops were once ordained by Russians here in America for the Greeks. (The "until" part wasn't there.) While at Jordanville he would attend the normal services (though he probably behaved within the services as someone of the Old Rite would), but he would remain someone of the Old Rite - in other words, they wouldn't make him go anywhere that used the New Rite, making him a New Rite clergy member himself. Hopefully that makes sense.

Your side thing regarding St. John Maximovitch and his parents, along with other things related to him, is odd. It's not even relevant, nor do they really matter.

Fr. Pimen Sofronov is one of the best iconographers of the 20th century, and he was personally responsible for bringing well over a thousand Old Believers and other individuals into the Orthodox Church. Not sure why you criticized him being chosen to work on a project. I've been at a parish he worked on, and while unfortunately it needs some repair work due to water damage, the iconography is masterfully done and traditional. What's hilarious, quite frankly, is your accusation of the icons being "cold". Old Russian iconography is famous for having lots of life and being more animated (due to exaggeration of various features, like the beard in the icon of St. Maximus the Greek), despite being rather traditional in style, in comparison to later developments.

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Barbara
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

I didn't see this reply. Obviously you and I have different ideas, NC !
For, I was just looking at the very 1st photos I took of St John's Crypt. Must have been in the middle or later 1980s. I happened upon an old photo album of prized photos. Prized in the sense of relating to Saint John or other Saints. This was well before he was glorified, though everyone KNEW he was not just a Saint but a GREAT Saint.

I took the photos to preserve the feeling of holiness of St John's tomb area for myself at home. Just yesterday, looking at this old album again, I mused "Yes, the Pimen Sofronov frescos are somewhat stilted and awkward to my eyes".
He was a priest ? I didn't realize that. Sorry for not having included his title, then.

I did feel that if N. Zadorozhny had received the commission, that tomb would have been spectacular, a place where people would have flocked even more, from all over the world. This Sofronov style does not somehow reach out to the viewer.
I realize the Old Believer iconographer did adorn many Churches, which is of course admirable. But the styles of Archimandrite Cyprian and his school and the later Abp Alypy of Chicago are so much more appealing. I feel someone goofed on the choice of iconographer even more after looking at those original snapshots I took there [ before being chased away by one of the 2 shrinekeepers, a scene I still remember like it was yesterday ! I didn't go back for a long while after that. ]

Maybe you could provide us with a bio of Fr Pimen Sofronov so that we can learn about his life ?

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Barbara
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

Well, about St John himself, there does seem to be a thin thread ATTEMPTING to connect him with some Old Believer figures. I was rereading the story related by Bp Daniel of Erie about how a Serbian man inquired of St John whether he should become a monk. St John said No. As Bp Daniel told it, years later Abp John met this same man, now in monastic garb.
Supposedly, St John gave a big grin. Bp Daniel interpreted this as St John's awareness of how Serbian minds work. If you tell them to do something, they will NOT do it, and vice versa. [ In short, the Serbs are contrary and can not take orders. ] So, according to Bp Daniel's version, St John deliberately told the questioner to not enter monasticism.

I felt uncomfortable about this story, as though it was more like a joke than a true tale. As a joke, one could say "fine" and let it go. But how could this be TRUE ? St John would NEVER EVER have said a lie. Thus, if asked a life question like this especially, he would not give the opposite reply in order to cater to a theoretical Serbian trait. This Saint -- who expressed utter shock that any clergyman could tell a lie, thus revealing how HE never diverged from the absolute truth -- would not have spoken that way.

I contend that this and the other story told about St John's having encouraged the future Bp Daniel to STAY IN the Old Believers so that he could "protect" the breakaway group are .... invented to gain more legitimacy for the Old Believers, a point of view that seems to have been aided and abetted by the Platina publishers of St John the Wonderworker.
At minimum, the ancedotes were distorted to suit an Old Believer agenda, or vastly misinterpreted.

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Barbara
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

Supporting my contention above is the evidence of St John's attitude toward Patriarch Nikon. I was glad to read in the memoirs of one Rocor-MP figure exactly what I would have guessed but could not have confirmation of had this story not been related.

Saint John was quizzing students at probably the Old Holy Virgin Cathedral school in San Francisco. The Saint asked one girl her opinion about Patriarch Nikon.
Showing no independent thinking, she served up the stock answer [ i.e., the school of Kapterev or worse ].
St John vehemently took exception to this. He forcefully asserted that Patriarch Nikon was very great and the GREATEST of the Russian Patriarchs. [ Yes !!! ]

So how would this enthusiastic support for the saintly Patriarch possibly lend itself to... enthusiastic support for Bp Daniel and his Old Rite - ?!

This casts doubt on the veracity of Bp Daniel's tales. I wonder whether he was such an asset to Rocor as NCYet is implying.
I personally think Rocor would have been better off without that Erie parish.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Barbara wrote:

Well, about St John himself, there does seem to be a thin thread ATTEMPTING to connect him with some Old Believer figures. I was rereading the story related by Bp Daniel of Erie about how a Serbian man inquired of St John whether he should become a monk. St John said No. As Bp Daniel told it, years later Abp John met this same man, now in monastic garb.
Supposedly, St John gave a big grin. Bp Daniel interpreted this as St John's awareness of how Serbian minds work. If you tell them to do something, they will NOT do it, and vice versa. [ In short, the Serbs are contrary and can not take orders. ] So, according to Bp Daniel's version, St John deliberately told the questioner to not enter monasticism.

I felt uncomfortable about this story, as though it was more like a joke than a true tale. As a joke, one could say "fine" and let it go. But how could this be TRUE ? St John would NEVER EVER have said a lie. Thus, if asked a life question like this especially, he would not give the opposite reply in order to cater to a theoretical Serbian trait. This Saint -- who expressed utter shock that any clergyman could tell a lie, thus revealing how HE never diverged from the absolute truth -- would not have spoken that way.

I contend that this and the other story told about St John's having encouraged the future Bp Daniel to STAY IN the Old Believers so that he could "protect" the breakaway group are .... invented to gain more legitimacy for the Old Believers, a point of view that seems to have been aided and abetted by the Platina publishers of St John the Wonderworker.
At minimum, the ancedotes were distorted to suit an Old Believer agenda, or vastly misinterpreted.

Barbra, I keep telling you that these Old Ritualists St. John of San Francisco was dealing with were NOT a breakaway group. You clearly aren't paying attention to my writing. These Old Ritualists were part of ROCOR. They didn't have a separate hierarchy, even though they maintained usage of the Old Russian Rite. Bishop Daniel of Erie was a ROCOR bishop.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Barbara wrote:

Supporting my contention above is the evidence of St John's attitude toward Patriarch Nikon. I was glad to read in the memoirs of one Rocor-MP figure exactly what I would have guessed but could not have confirmation of had this story not been related.

Saint John was quizzing students at probably the Old Holy Virgin Cathedral school in San Francisco. The Saint asked one girl her opinion about Patriarch Nikon.
Showing no independent thinking, she served up the stock answer [ i.e., the school of Kapterev or worse ].
St John vehemently took exception to this. He forcefully asserted that Patriarch Nikon was very great and the GREATEST of the Russian Patriarchs. [ Yes !!! ]

So how would this enthusiastic support for the saintly Patriarch possibly lend itself to... enthusiastic support for Bp Daniel and his Old Rite - ?!

This casts doubt on the veracity of Bp Daniel's tales. I wonder whether he was such an asset to Rocor as NCYet is implying.
I personally think Rocor would have been better off without that Erie parish.

Patriarch Nikon was deposed by the council of 1667 and is remembered by the Orthodox Church as a lay monk, as he abandoned his throne for about a decade after the Tsar refused to let him act as co-ruler of the country any longer. If any story is likely to have been false, it is the pro-Nikon story you just shared, as it simply doesn't make any sense.

Why do you think ROCOR would have been better off if the Erie parish didn't join Orthodoxy via ROCOR!? Barbara, stop taking crazy pills and calm down about this. You're directing all your energy towards criticizing a parish for being Orthodox, a completely insane thing for anyone who claims to be Orthodox to do.

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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Justice »

I see nothing wrong with Bishop Daniel's parish, (pre-union) it seems it was simply just an Old-Rite ROCOR parish. Also it seems to me that the Erie parish joining ROCOR was its best option. What other options were there at the time? I find that it would be unfitting for and Old-Rite parish joining the Traditional Greek Orthodox churches.

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