Ongoing Unity Chats: Macarios, Milan, Avlona, LoBue, ROAC

[Maria]

This stuff about being saved after death sounds a lot like the RCC's purgatory. This is something my avatar Saint was firmly opposed to during the time of the Council of Florence, interestingly enough.

Awake Sleeper is a heresy that teaches:
list Those unbaptized Pagans or improperly baptized Christians will have a second chance to repent in Hades when they hear the words of Christ as HOCNA teaches that Christ will instruct the ignorant in Hades as He once did just after His Holy Crucifixion.
Improperly baptized includes all Protestants and Roman Catholics who were not baptized according to the correct triple immersion form used by Orthodox Christians. Improperly baptized also includes all members of World Orthodoxy or even True Orthodox who were not COMPLETELY immersed three times, so those who are baptized in a kiddie pond by pouring of water over their heads and/or body are not completely immersed and hence, are not considered to be baptized.

(2) Those who are baptized in the True Orthodox Church and who die unrepentant will not have a second chance, but will be damned. In other words, according to those who believe in Awake Sleeper, Hades is partitioned into two places: a place for those who are being given a second chance, and a place for those who are damned.

This question of baptism begs two questions:
(a) What about those True Christians and World Orthodox who were baptized in air at the hospital when they were born premature and in danger of death? The Church through the ages has taught that these babies are to be considered fully baptized but need to be chrismated to rectify what which was lacking.
(b) What about those adults who are in danger of death, and do not have the opportunity to be fully immersed? For example, Elizabeth, a senior citizen, was in the hospital in critical condition. She begged Met. Moses of the Kallinikites to come and baptize her, but she was in bed with IV tubes, oxygen tubes, and monitors. There was no way the hospital was going to allow her to take a day trip to be plunged into the nearby lake. Even though Met. Moses firmly believes in triple immersion (complete triple immersion with all hair submerged is necessary), he also believes what the Church teaches about economia in case of danger of death. With permission of her doctors, Met. Moses came to the hospital and sprinkled her body and entire bed with holy water three times. Thus she was baptized and then chrismated. She died shortly afterwards in 2012, and was commemorated as the newly Illuminated and departed Elizabeth.[/list]

Awake Sleeper Heresy is dangerous because it lulls Christians into thinking that they need not worry about evangelizing the unbaptized because Christ will do so in Hades. Yet, in the Gospels, Christ has commanded us to preach the Gospel to all corners of the world, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Here are some threads about Name-Worshiping (aka Name-Glorifying)

HOCNA & Makarian Synod = Sisters in Name-Worshiping
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 12&t=11161

Name-Glorifying's Encroachment into Russian Orthodoxy
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 12&t=10888

Name Worshipping Alert: True Orthodoxy under attack
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 12&t=11500

World Orthodoxy and the Name-Worshiping Heresy
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 12&t=10445

[Madison Grant]

This stuff about being saved after death sounds a lot like the RCC's purgatory. This is something my avatar Saint was firmly opposed to during the time of the Council of Florence, interestingly enough.

Awake Sleeper is a heresy that teaches:
list Those unbaptized Pagans or improperly baptized Christians will have a second chance to repent in Hades when they hear the words of Christ as HOCNA teaches that Christ will instruct the ignorant in Hades as He once did just after His Holy Crucifixion.
Improperly baptized includes all Protestants and Roman Catholics who were not baptized according to the correct triple immersion form used by Orthodox Christians. Improperly baptized also includes all members of World Orthodoxy or even True Orthodox who were not COMPLETELY immersed three times, so those who are baptized in a kiddie pond by pouring of water over their heads and/or body are not completely immersed and hence, are not considered to be baptized.

(2) Those who are baptized in the True Orthodox Church and who die unrepentant will not have a second chance, but will be damned. In other words, according to those who believe in Awake Sleeper, Hades is partitioned into two places: a place for those who are being given a second chance, and a place for those who are damned.

This question of baptism begs two questions:
(a) What about those True Christians and World Orthodox who were baptized in air at the hospital when they were born premature and in danger of death? The Church through the ages has taught that these babies are to be considered fully baptized but need to be chrismated to rectify what which was lacking.
(b) What about those adults who are in danger of death, and do not have the opportunity to be fully immersed? For example, Elizabeth, a senior citizen, was in the hospital in critical condition. She begged Met. Moses of the Kallinikites to come and baptize her, but she was in bed with IV tubes, oxygen tubes, and monitors. There was no way the hospital was going to allow her to take a day trip to be plunged into the nearby lake. Even though Met. Moses firmly believes in triple immersion (complete triple immersion with all hair submerged is necessary), he also believes what the Church teaches about economia in case of danger of death. With permission of her doctors, Met. Moses came to the hospital and sprinkled her body and entire bed with holy water three times. Thus she was baptized and then chrismated. She died shortly afterwards in 2012, and was commemorated as the newly Illuminated and departed Elizabeth.[/list]

Awake Sleeper Heresy is dangerous because it lulls Christians into thinking that they need not worry about evangelizing the unbaptized because Christ will do so in Hades. Yet, in the Gospels, Christ has commanded us to preach the Gospel to all corners of the world, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Here are some threads about Name-Worshiping (aka Name-Glorifying)

HOCNA & Makarian Synod = Sisters in Name-Worshiping
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 12&t=11161

Name-Glorifying's Encroachment into Russian Orthodoxy
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 12&t=10888

Name Worshipping Alert: True Orthodoxy under attack
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 12&t=11500

World Orthodoxy and the Name-Worshiping Heresy
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 12&t=10445

Thanks for this informative post, Maria.

I read the post and will check out the links you provided.

[Jean-Serge]

Since robots are sometimes parsing the web to retrieve emails, emails should not be displayed.

[Agios_Irineos]

What do you mean by "reaching out" Maria. Is there something besides what you posted? Calling other synods ecumenists and hoping they "find" canonical true orthodox bishops doesn't really sounds like reaching out to me.

[Jean-Serge]

Will Thomas Deretich convince ROAC to join the Macarios Synod of which HOCNA is a part? This remains to be seen. From the letter of Met. Gregory, it appears as if one of the ROAC bishops may fall. Let us pray for him that he remains firm in the faith and does not fall into the heresies of Name-Worshiping and Awake Sleeper.

Astonishingly, this latest wave of persecution seems to have been triggered, at least in part, by Metropolitan Theodore’s friendship with our Synod. I personally know Metropolitan Theodore. In fact, this past July, I had the honor of hosting him in Georgia, along with two other bishops of his Synod, in order to become better acquainted with each other and slowly to advance the friendship between our Churches.

Much talking and assumption here... I doubt Thomas Deretich has any contact with people in ROAC or with ROAC bishops. Moreover, the ROAC bishops made a trip to Georgia, not to meet Metropolitan Gregory of HOCNA, but for other reasons.Since Metropolitan Gregory of HOCNA was there at the same time (he is Goergian), he offered them to show them the country religious places and they took profit of the occasion to discuss the views of the different churches on different topics to compare basically. It is contradictory to write

From the letter of Met. Gregory, it appears as if one of the ROAC bishops may fall. when the letter says to become better acquainted with each other and slowly to advance the friendship between our Churches. The letter actually says the opposite and that basically both entities knew nothing one about another and would need to discuss a lot and take time, which is different from asserting that one of the ROAC bishops may fall

[Maria]

Since robots are sometimes parsing the web to retrieve emails, emails should not be displayed.

Please forgive me for that oversight. I have erased those email addresses. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

[Barbara]

I noticed that, too, when I went to check Portal-Credo for any updates on the current ROAC crisis. Looking under the English language section, I saw the mention of the trip to Georgia by Met Theodore and Archbishop Andrei [ now I see from Jean-Serge's post that there was one more ROAC hierarch present as well ].
Perhaps this visit was timed to coincide with the annual St Nina pilgrimage on foot ? I am not sure. But surely it had nothing to do with Hocna's President, as he terms himself.

That is interesting, Jean-Serge, that Met Gregory is Georgian ! I had no idea.

Well I still feel it's a help that the latter is trying to rally support for the ROAC hierarchs. At least somebody is doing SOMETHING ! I checked on the internet briefly and saw no other mention of this frightening event. I could hardly believe that there is silence on the part of the entire Orthodox world. It should be also reported in newspapers.

Despite his heresies, at least there is some support coming from Met Gregory. I wonder whether it is just he, or the entire Hocna synod is in agreement about speaking up regarding the terrible treatment of the 2 ROAC hierarchs.

I, too, though, was amazed at that disclosure of some sort of friendly ties between Hocna and ROAC. It's the first time I had heard a whisper of any contacts whatsoever.

Which ROAC Bishop is it, Maria, who might be tempted to fall, as you wrote ? Can you say ?

PS - Jean-Serge, you did a good job of confronting the lay theologian for Hocna. Who is this Thomas Deretich ? Do you have more information about how he became a true believer in the correctness of Hocna's extremely weird ideas ? It seems strange for a presumed American to imbibe such heresies. Was Deretich with Hocna for a long time ?