St Pauls' baggage

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Protopriest Dionysi
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Post by Protopriest Dionysi »

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

Tom,

It is not so easy to "Run", my wife was brought up in this Church

And how ironic that would be if you turned out to be truly Orthodox and your wife, well, just Greek. Run Tom! Run! And if your wife won't, then drop her off and keep driving to an Orthodox Church, even if its across state lines. Pack and move, you are in the spiritual version of IRAQ with a big American flag on your back.

I was once in the GOA and I know exactly what you are dealing with. I asked if you could share with us what your priest told you because I knew in all likelihood there would be no such conversation. You would think at $125,000/yr these "priests" would have the time to confess people more than once a year. Yet strangley enough, they find the time to commune everyone on Sunday, even if they don't know their name.

Run!

Amen.

Lounger
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Post by Lounger »

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

Tom,

It is not so easy to "Run", my wife was brought up in this Church

And how ironic that would be if you turned out to be truly Orthodox and your wife, well, just Greek. Run Tom! Run! And if your wife won't, then drop her off and keep driving to an Orthodox Church, even if its across state lines. Pack and move, you are in the spiritual version of IRAQ with a big American flag on your back.

I was once in the GOA and I know exactly what you are dealing with. I asked if you could share with us what your priest told you because I knew in all likelihood there would be no such conversation. You would think at $125,000/yr these "priests" would have the time to confess people more than once a year. Yet strangley enough, they find the time to commune everyone on Sunday, even if they don't know their name.

Run!

Or perhaps another way to say it is that your wife gave you the wonderful gift of an introduction to the reality of Orthodox Christianity existing, and in return you can give her the greater gift of showing her the fullness of the Faith in True Orthodoxy.

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Natasha
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Post by Natasha »

I think that is a much kinder way of looking at the situation Lounger.
I have posted about these GOA practices as well. No confessions, and at my local GOA anyway, no Saturday evening vespers.

We all know that the Greeks are very tight. Maybe OOD, being a Greek himself, can give Tom some advice on how to handle the situation without alienating the family & causing a scandal.

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Protopriest Dionysi
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Post by Protopriest Dionysi »

Natasha wrote:

I think that is a much kinder way of looking at the situation Lounger.
I have posted about these GOA practices as well. No confessions, and at my local GOA anyway, no Saturday evening vespers.

We all know that the Greeks are very tight. Maybe OOD, being a Greek himself, can give Tom some advice on how to handle the situation without alienating the family & causing a scandal.

It may seem and sound hard. But his advice to flee was sound. How do you try to work with a priest or a juisdiction who, by their actions, show that they are NOT interested in Orthodoxy. Even worse then not having these things, is that they can, but do not. Lex Orandi Lex Credendi (I hope the last one is correct)- The law of Prayer is the the Law of Belief. How you pray shows how you believe. What you do and how you do it reflect on your faith. We are not talking here of a priest or bishops problems or personal sins. We are not talking of mistakes in practice or eduaction. We ARE talking about deception and fraud. They know better, thaey can do better, but instead of spending the time with their faithful, they spend time in ecumenist gathers tying to woo others by their fancy dress and talks.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Natasha,

In my time leading up to my final departure from Worldly Orthodoxy, I had many discussions with my father and others. In almost every respect, they agreed with everything I had to say.

Much to my surprise, nothing could have prepared me for the war I had to face when I finally did leave. Not being able to attend family "marriages", "baptisms", ect. in their church (although I did some), and them not being able to be God parents for my children. Scandal after scandal. I didn't know it then, but looking bcak I suppose it was unavoidable.

While I will say there are ways to make a departure as graceful as possible, there is never an excuse for staying when one finally realizes the truth. Yes, try to "peal" your wife away, but also recognize if it can even be done or not.

Tom should realize that it will be a HUGE scandal within the family, but then Christ said, anyone who loves his own mother more than Him does not deserve Him.

Expect war.

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Protopriest Dionysi
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Post by Protopriest Dionysi »

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

Natasha,

In my time leading up to my final departure from Worldly Orthodoxy, I had many discussions with my father and others. In almost every respect, they agreed with everything I had to say.

Much to my surprise, nothing could have prepared me for the war I had to face when I finally did leave. Not being able to attend family "marriages", "baptisms", ect. in their church (although I did some), and them not being able to be God parents for my children. Scandal after scandal. I didn't know it then, but looking bcak I suppose it was unavoidable.

While I will say there are ways to make a departure as graceful as possible, there is never an excuse for staying when one finally realizes the truth. Yes, try to "peal" your wife away, but also recognize if it can even be done or not.

Tom should realize that it will be a HUGE scandal within the family, but then Christ said, anyone who loves his own mother more than Him does not deserve Him.

Expect war.

Yes. And worry about your salvation. Sometimes this can come like a sword seperating loved ones, but He who loves us should be our main love.

Gregory2

Post by Gregory2 »

I grew up an American "Greek Orthodox," and please forgive me if I hurt anyone by my words. Much of the historic Greek Orthodox Church in America experience was spent trying to "fit in" -- and I did not live in the early days of the Church in America, so I don't know what things were like -- but I fear that the Greek Orthodox Church in America has not yet transitioned from the "fitting in" stage to a Christian leadership stage -- one where the Greek-American Orthodox Christians offer their faith to the American people. (We Orthodox have a responsibility to do that!) The other Orthodox Churches in America are miles ahead in this respect!

Very true indeed -- few Greek Orthodox churches in America offer Saturday evening (or other weekday evening) vespers. Regards to confession.... I never even confessed till I was at university - where the local Orthodox Church was OCA and the priest required it. My home Greek Orthodox parish never required it (or at least I never heard of it). I still don't know why this is -- I've thought that perhaps it was an effort to "fit in" to the overwhelming protestant culture in America, and confession was considered by many to be a "Roman Catholic" practice. Again, I think it's time to move beyond this, and I'm hopeful -- things in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America seem as if they are changing (very slowly). I've read of Confession being encouraged in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese newspaper (Orthodox Observer).

Father Dionysi, you wrote above about the removal of Archbishop Spyridon a few years back -- I couldn't agree more. This effort suggested to me that perhaps my Orthodox home for a time should be other than the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in America. If our Church leaders are sent by God, then what right do we as the faithful have to demand their removal?? Some of the things that Archbishop Spyridon championed -- such as the removal of organ music from Greek Orthodox parishes -- are good things that (in my opinion) the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese should adopt. Unfortunately, my opinion was in the minority :cry:

Interestingly, I have traveled in Greece and the Orthodox practices in America don't parallel those in the "homeland" -- no organ music, very faithful, traditional folk was my experience.

I do think it's extremely important to not be judgmental -- loving our neighbor is our foremost duty. If however, some (as I did) feel that leaving the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese for another Orthodox home is important, then I recommend doing it gently, with utmost attention to family/friends feelings. Truly, to the Orthodox Christian, the most important thing should be that one stays Orthodox Christian -- definitely not which "ethnic parish" one feels most comfortable in. As Father Seraphim Rose wrote, "comfortable Christianity" is a modern entity that our Christian fathers would not have advocated.

Oct 13, Martyrs Carpus (bishop) and Papylus (deacon) in Asia Minor, 251. Chrisa, New Marytr, Bulgaria, massacred by Turks, 1795.

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