TomS wrote:FYI:
Based upon recommendations from Nik on this board and anastasios over at OC.Net, I ordered the following books today:
It would be very good to get basic book on the faith like the Law of God and the Teaching of the Holy Orthodox Church VOl. I from Holy Apostle Convent in Buena Vista Colorado.
Speaking of the Holy Apostle Convent in Buena Vista, I have a great book from them called "The Lives of the Holy Apostles".
I believe Tom may find this book very beneficial regarding St. Paul. I only paid $21 but that was several years ago.
Tom, I would be very interested to know what your spiritual father at the GOA says about all of this...if that's something you can share.
OOD, that is, in fact the book I suggested to Tom.
Tom, you can get the Holy Apostles Convent book Father Dionysi suggested, The Teachings of the Holy Orthodox Church via clicking on the title.
As for the Law of God: If you buy LAW OF GOD from ORTHODOX GIFTS using this URL: http://www.orthodoxgifts.com/product_in ... ducts_id=5 and enter the following code when checking out: EC0803 you will get a free cross! They sell the book for under the publisher's price, so it is a great deal!
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Priest Dionysi wrote:I do pray that these tough words are not seen as to be mean, but just straightforward. Your thoughts are symptoms of wrong (non-Orthodox) belief. St. Paul, women, ect. are not the problems. The problem is a lack of knowledge concerning True Orthodoxy. If you really do not think so, just read some very basic books on the Orthodox faith and see how it differs.
In Christ,
Priest Dionysi
Father Bless! Forgive me Father. I do not take offense to any of your words. I know they were given as correction in love.
It is very hard (being raised a Protestant) and growing up in the 70's with Vietnam/Watergate and the motto "Question Authority" on bumper stickers to just accept everything the Church says. So much of it just seems over the top. And truthfully, the GOA church DOES kinda allow you to pick and choose what you truly believe.
Once again, I ask your forgiveness and for your prayers.
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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
Tom also posted about this same topic on OC.net. I gave this reply over there, and am copying/pasting it here for Cafe members to read/critique.
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The key difference between St.Paul and the writings of individual Fathers and Saints, is (as others have pointed out) that his are considered "inspired Scripture" - thus their primary author is God, so content wise we cannot admit there being any error, let alone errors touching on key aspects of theology or morality!
This distinction however (between the Scriptures and other writings) needs to be explained. This distinction does not mean that the Fathers were not inspired. Rather this is a question of degree more than it is a question of kind. Wherever we find small "lapses" or imprecision in the thoughts/words of individual Church Fathers, what we are witnessing are areas of their intellect that were obviously not completely healed at the time they wrote.
Now is this to claim that prior to his martyrdom, St.Paul was necessarily 100% "healed" so to speak? Well, tuthfully this is neither here nor there. For we are not talking simply about writings simply written by him, but writings by him which came (from a very early time) to be recognized as speaking authoratatively the mind of the Church - for they are foundational texts, resting at the heart of the Holy Tradition. The Body of Christ (the Orthodox Church) recognizes their catholicity and authority in this respect. To say they contain "errors", let alone of the kind you cite, would be akin to saying there are "errors" in the Creed, whose formation is (also) the result of the Church's universal witness.
We know from the Epistles of St.Paul themselves, that St.Paul did author other documents, which by God's permission are no longer extant. Perhaps it was because these were not so useful, or may have suffered from the type of imprecessions/problems that TomS (falsely) believes can be found in the canonical Epistles of the New Testament.
Unlike the RC's, Orthodoxy does not teach that inspiration ended with the death of St.John the Theologian/Apostle. However, there are very few things we can point to (perhaps the Creed, and things like this) in our Tradition, with a claim on "inspiration" akin to the Holy Scriptures (and certainly not with the same centrality). Since they are the heart, and are accepted in total, the Church doesn't admit the possibility they are at all contaminated. If they were, then we'd have to believe the dogmatic roots of the Church are bad (and what would that say for the rest of the Tree?)
Seraphim
Father Bless! Forgive me Father. I do not take offense to any of your words. I know they were given as correction in love.
It is very hard (being raised a Protestant) and growing up in the 70's with Vietnam/Watergate and the motto "Question Authority" on bumper stickers to just accept everything the Church says. So much of it just seems over the top. And truthfully, the GOA church DOES kinda allow you to pick and choose what you truly believe.
Once again, I ask your forgiveness and for your prayers.
May the Lord bless you. I understand growing up in such times, and do say that it is most likely worse now. They are just better at keeping it secret. The difference of course is between the institutions made by man and God. The GOA feeds into this by allowing a cafeteria type of orthodoxy and what seems to be a "more democratic" type of ecclesiology (I am thinking here of the removal of the last archbishop). But this is the difference of "us" defining God and God defining us. We convert to Orthodoxy and we do not convert Orthodoxy to fit in our own world view. This is the fruit of the deadly tree of ecumenism that teaches, or allows, converts to define things with the mind they had before they were brought into the CHurch. This is a very good reason for catechumen to be examined and taught.
In Christ,
Priest Dionysi
