Let's Keep Our Distance

[尼古拉前执事]

Father Bless!

Dear Fr. Serafim,

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  I only have a minute here, but I wanted to be sure to thank you for that response Father, it was very clear and enlightening. We are blessed ot have you here among us.

Kissing your right hand,
-Nicholas

[Justin Kissel]

Logos,

I am always leary of discussions that speculate where the grace of God is. God will work where he wants to, he does not needs us to tell him where he should be.

I think you are misunderstanding, my friend. No one is trying to tell God where he should be, and no one is "speculating" (a very sensitive term to use in Orthodox discussions... it is perhaps for saints to speculate, not us sinners) "where God works". You have things backwards: it is not those in the Church who are "guessing" and "demanding," but it is God Himself who already told us through the Bible and the Fathers where his grace is, and we are only passing along what was taught. You are correct, God will indeed work where he wants to, and that includes outside the Church (otherwise I couldn't have become a part of the Church through conversion). Yet paradoxically, God also made some statements through his revelation to us about salvation, grace, etc. that seem to contradict this. I am thankful Fr. Serafim was able to articulate this. Remember, when we learn something from "tradition," that's the same thing as learning it from Christ's own mouth (since the Church is the human-divine body, and Christ is the head, leading it into the fullness of the truth).

[Denis]

We understand grace differently from the Protestants who see grace in terms of God's mercy towards mankind. In that sense there is grace everywhere. However, we as Orthodox, see grace also as power (dynamis) which is only received through the mysteries of the Church i.e. Baptism and Holy Communion for example. The argument that the Holy Spirit is everywhere and therefore is the possession of all who believe, is based on a misunderstanding of the spiritual nature of Orthodox Christians, who are different from other people in that they possess the Holy Spirit on the inside.

Outside of the Church, people are affected by the Holy Spirit externally, and so they come to the Church. Within the Church the Holy Spirit i.e. grace works from within, like a seed that needs nurturing if the fruit of the Spirit is to be harvested at the end of time. Orthodox Christians are not of course above sin and will be judged more severely than non-Orthodox. However Orthodox Christians by the action of grace are different beings than their fellow humans. When we talk of church unity we often forget this. You can't unite opposites.. but that is probably the beginning of another thread.

Yours in Christ,

Fr Serafim

Thank you Fr Serafim for your comments and contributions to the forum. I would like very much if you could also clarify the baptism of the Holly Spirit which is subject to so many interpretations, from the RC point of view on one hand, to the charismatic on the other hand. Maybe I should post this question as a new topic.

Denis