The practice of living the life in Christ: fasting, vigil lamps, head-coverings, family life, icon corners, and other forms of Orthopraxy. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
"Greek" style of tiny crosses over the chest only.... Symeon
When this is done, the Cross is upside down. It's not a "Greek" style. It's a prelest style that has been adopted out of lack of fear for God due to a lack of spiritual education.
I should clarify, because I was tired and my brain didn't register. The upside down part is when the papists do it from forehead to chest. But, the small spaghetti Crosses are also papist. Good analogy considering it started from Rome.
The three little crosses made with the thumb are part of the Mass in the Roman Catholic Church.
These little crosses are made just before the reading of the Holy Gospel with the silent prayer: May the reading of the Holy Gospel be in my mind, on my lips, and in my heart.
It is similar to what our Orthodox Deacon or Priest declares: "Let us be attentive," where we are asked to be attentive to the words of the Holy Gospel and to live them in our lives.
Yes, this is what I observe. The most pious members of our congregation at St Markella's typically make a full sign of the Cross. But there does appear to be a genuine difference in the traditions with respect to bowing before or after making the sign of the Cross: Greeks bow first and sign themselves while raising their bodies again, while Russians sign first and then bow.
I have a very pious Greek (born in Greece) in my Church and I've never seen him bow first and cross after. He always crosses first. Is the bowing during the service or before kissing the Cross?
Among Russians you can see similar variation in piety, with some Russians bowing almost to a right angle, and others just nodding the head. I find on average they are better at making the sign of the Cross.
The bowing depends on the constitution of the individual. Sometimes, I will bow to the floor for specific, sacred parts of the service. Other times my back is giving me a problem. And other times I just feel like nodding. There is no rule of how much to bow. It is a personal decision.
You are mistaken to make judgements based on the degrees of bows and the piety of the person. This is an outward act which may not reflect the actual state of that person's heart. A person may make great bows and you think he/she is so pious, but that person may be just wanting attention. Then you have another person who just nods and you think that person is not so faithful.
You need to understand what piety means and recognize it. I'm telling you this from experience.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
You're right that you can't judge inward piety from outward actions, so I take that back. What I should have said is that I observe variation in the way people bow, just as I observe variation in the way people make the sign of the Cross. I dare say you shouldn't judge people's inward piety even if their signing is "off", but that doesn't mean there isn't a standard of proper signing we should aim for.
The bowing first I've seen has been during services; does that make a difference? I haven't watched people during their private devotions so I don't know if they do it differently then.
...Maybe the Greeks you see are taking part of that Western papist tradition. Then they (papists) kiss their thumb. I never understood that.
I think that began in an ancient Roman Coliseum, where they first played football (American English: "Soccer"). It is what they do first for good luck before they play, then it is done afterwards to give thanks after they score a point. I also saw Francis of Assisi do it in Brother Sun Sister Moon. I think he must have played football too.
Yeah, he was a goalie - it was those old medieval balls with the heavy stitching that gave him that stigmata thing.
The Serbs cross first and then bow, that's what I was taught. I remember among the converts I first met it was kind of 'cool' to make a lazy cross. I didn't like how they didn't even seem to do straight lines or go for a decent right angle. If you were slower and more precise, they would look at you like like they thought you were trying to hard. Then I read St Chrysostom say about the demons laughing at a badly done cross and since then I've tried to do it as well as I can.
Anyone notice Bear Grylls (man versus wild) does the Orthodox style cross before jumping out of the helicopter and stuff? Just with the Latin style hand though.
Do not be shocked by those who teach new doctrines but seem to be worthy of credence. Stand solidly like an anvil under blows. A good athlete suffers blows but wins. St Ignatius.
No i have nyet seen that. Maybe he is melchite or something.
Melkites make the Sign of the Cross just like the Greek Orthodox do. Of all the Eastern Catholics, they are most like Orthodox Christians in their worship and prayer life. In fact, many Melkites have become Orthodox Christians. I used to be in the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church, and the instruction I received from them consisted in reading books written by Orthodox Christian Priests.
