Intra-TOC Polemics - ROCOR-A / ROCA: What is all this infighting and dissension?

[Maria]

With the folks at Holy Trinity Parish (ROCOR-A under Agafangel) in Oxnard pushing for unity with the MP (this they told me to my face), with Holy Trinity parishioners admitting to me that they are singing in the choirs of the OCA and the ROCOR-MP for the big feast days whenever World Orthodox hierarchs are visiting, and with others in ROCOR-A USA also pushing for unity with the MP (I will not mention the many laity blogs of the ROCOR-A as they are all gossip rags), I cannot say that the ROCA is still part of True Orthodox. No wonder ROCOR-A have so much infighting among the laity and clergy.

All this ungodly rancor reminds me of the ROCOR back at the turn of the century through 2007, when Anthony of Geneva and his gang were pushing for unity with the MP.

Now many in the ROCOR-A seems to be MP wannabies, so I would suggest caution, lest new Orthodox Christians be lead astray.

I doubt that Met. Agafangel will ever address this problem because it is my opinion that he does not want to upset the MP, and that perhaps he secretly desires unity with the MP at some later date.

[Barbara]

One part of this attempt at secession from ROCA proper under Met Agafangel which is truly bizarre is that so many people at once seemed to take leave of their senses ! They were making nonsensical claims, and empty retorts, never responding to what was calmly said to them to point out their errors.

Could it be a possession by demons of this entire group - ?!-! I notice on an individual basis that people who don't reply to the question one asks them but give a garbled answer are usually those who harbor evil spirits.

What has happened to goad these people into starting a rebellion ? It has been posited that the KGB is the ultimate organizer with former Abp Andronik as one of the primary front people. But how would all the rest, clery and laity --- including a woman attorney in Melbourne, who one would imagine would be level-headed and reasonable --- be drawn in ?

What would be the incentive for them, assuming that the FSB [ or a "cut-out" in spy terms ] is masterminding this vocal movement.
And aggressive it is. Pretty soon, the ringleaders will be calling to "Occupy Odessa", i.e. the St Michael Cathedral of their primate.

[Barbara]

Just saw your post above, Maria.

Don't you think that Holy Trinity Oxnard is unusual in this regard ? It sounded like the parishioners there are distinctly apathetic and could care less about Church "politics" even when they are most relevant and crucial as during these years after the 2007 sad event. Surely it is not representative of other ROCA parishes where experienced Priests are at the helm. Holy Trinity is only visited occasionally these days by Priests, and GOC ones at that, right ? So they are not really a bellwether, at least I HOPE NOT !

Your overall point is possible, however. From well before May 2007, I was one of those who thought then-Bishop Agafangel was ready to 'do a deal' with Rocor-MP so as to be something like them : in an amorphous status, unable to be independent but holding up a brave face before their flock that they are autonomous in many ways.

Well, if this is true about Agafangel, then that would be the first legitimate complaint that I have heard !

However ! No one has advanced this argument in English. Maybe elsewhere, the former Rocor Bishop's flock is complaining that he is too "soft" on the MP. Note that Agafangel wrote his excellent rejoinder on the Feast Day of New Hieromartyr Peter of Krutitsk. So we can sense he may have started out with less spine vis a vis the MP but toughened up over these years as he saw the realities, such as the dreadful persecution of ROAC.

[Barbara]

Sure enough, there is NOT A WHISPER about this complaint amongst the many whiny-sounding ones advanced by The 8.
This group is composed of 2 former Archbishops [Sophrony and Andronik], an Abbot [ Psarev ], a couple of priests [ sadly including the learned Mitred Archpriest Nikita Grigoriev ] and 3 laypeople, including Mark Kotlaroff and the author of a terribly racy novel [ Vadim Yarmolinets ]. Metropolitan Agafangel numbers this group as 9, but I am putting 8 because of the signatures on the latest reply the schismatic group made.

In a shrill letter sent to Metropolit Agafangel, The 8 demand that he resign his post as Chairman of the ROCA Synod and divide up this jurisdiction into 3 separate Synods : Ukraine-Moldova, Russia and Far Abroad. That is clearly unworkable to have 3 independent mini-synods. Who would preside above them ? Who would adjudicate when disagreements arise either intra-mini-synod or inter-mini-synod ? This proposal shows wooly-mindedness at the very minimum.

It appears that The 8 Can't W8 [ = wait ]. The 8 brusquely declined Vladika Agafangel's most recent cordial offer for them to attend an upcoming Synodal meeting in America, Canada and South America to resolve their complaints. The 8 brushed off their former First Hierarch due to their transparently obvious alarm at being outnumbered at such a Synodal meeting and soundly voted down. After such a result, The 8 would look extremely bad to keep persisting.

That is why The 8 pound the same drumbeat about the necessity for a VI All-Diaspora Council. Clearly, The 8 believe they can manipulate public opinion among the laity, who today are so often politically ill-informed and ignorant of how the Orthodox Church works. Just look at the example Maria gave above about Holy Trinity Oxnard.
Hence the laity - especially converts in Western countries - and newer clergy are malleable.

In contrast, The 8 know well that the experienced ROCA Bishops won't put up for a minute with their outrageous Protestant philosophy and principles.

[Barbara]

Correction : I kept saying Psarev. I meant : ERASTOV !
They are both Andrei but one is in Rocor-MP and runs the Rocor Studies website. The other, the Abbot featured in a starring role in this schism, resides in Melbourne Australia.

Sorry for the mistake. A fine expert I am on this subject - !

[Barbara]

Perhaps I was correct, however, to zero in on Fr Andrei [ Erastov ]. The Australia-based clergyman is emerging as even more of a principal agent in this confrontation than he may have appeared.
The latest idiocies released by The 8 include this babble :

"The time has come to reach objective conclusions; so that members of the Synod will no
longer fear being excluded from the Synod for taking honest and principled positions, so that
the dishonorable practice of punishments and banishment, without either a trial or a hearing,
will be stopped, so that encroachments into other bishop’s diocese will cease, so that justified
and respectful appeals from church members will no longer be met with prideful silence, and
so that, last but not least, a person can come to church and pray to God in peace and without
the concern that his rector or ruling bishop has been banned from serving for disagreeing with
the bellicose policies of the Metropolitan."

Please give a source for the above, or this babble (read gossip) will be removed.
While the rest of your post here has been deleted, I have sent a copy of it to you for revision.
Thank you.
Maria

[Maria]

Just saw your post above, Maria.

Don't you think that Holy Trinity Oxnard is unusual in this regard ? It sounded like the parishioners there are distinctly apathetic and could care less about Church "politics" even when they are most relevant and crucial as during these years after the 2007 sad event. Surely it is not representative of other ROCA parishes where experienced Priests are at the helm. Holy Trinity is only visited occasionally these days by Priests, and GOC ones at that, right ? So they are not really a bellwether, at least I HOPE NOT !

Your overall point is possible, however. From well before May 2007, I was one of those who thought then-Bishop Agafangel was ready to 'do a deal' with Rocor-MP so as to be something like them : in an amorphous status, unable to be independent but holding up a brave face before their flock that they are autonomous in many ways.

Well, if this is true about Agafangel, then that would be the first legitimate complaint that I have heard !

However ! No one has advanced this argument in English. Maybe elsewhere, the former Rocor Bishop's flock is complaining that he is too "soft" on the MP. Note that Agafangel wrote his excellent rejoinder on the Feast Day of New Hieromartyr Peter of Krutitsk. So we can sense he may have started out with less spine vis a vis the MP but toughened up over these years as he saw the realities, such as the dreadful persecution of ROAC.

Perhaps under the umbrella of the GOC-K and with regular meetings with Archbishop Kallinikos, Met. Agafangel is now more strictly holding onto True Orthodoxy. Perhaps this is why there have been no more complaints against him by former GOC-K priests who have now merged with him.

Only time will tell. We must pray for him.