Vegan Diet And the Teachings in Holy Scriptures

[jgress]

In Proverbs Solomon also speaks of "riotous eaters of flesh". Eating lots of meat has always been a sign of gluttony.

I'm admittedly skeptical of the idea that meat affects one's emotional state: I've never found this to be true in my own case, and I haven't been able to find solid scientific studies showing this. Nevertheless, some people do report that meat-eating affects them in this way, and it seems to have been a prevalent notion in ancient medicine, whence the Fathers, who offered as a reason for fasting that meat affects the passions. Personally, I interpret this in the same way I interpret other cases where the Fathers have been scientifically inaccurate: they were simply using the best available secular wisdom of their time, and even if they happen to be wrong in this instance, this does not negate the value of fasting overall.

Eating meat is enjoyable, and part of the purpose of fasting is to abstain from legitimate pleasures. Also, it is undeniable even in modern medicine that excessive meat consumption is harmful. This fits well with what is said in Proverbs, and by St Paul. Excessive consumption of meat or wine is harmful and inconsistent with Christian moderation.

[joasia]

So, my Roman Catholic friend was offended/scandalized when I suggested that we go to a Chinese restaurant to have some vegetables because of the Buddha present at the entrance. She felt that she might be scandalizing other Christians by going to that restaurant.

However, if a brother is an alcoholic, and we order alcohol with our food, that could be a huge stumbling block for him.

I don't think they are the same situation. One is about the faith and the other about a personal sin. Your friend had a limitation based on her spiritual circumstance. We are all at different levels on that. We should respect each others limitations. The other example is different because an alcoholic will order alcohol, when you go to a restaurant, and a recovering alcoholic will not. So there's no stumbling block there. If he is trying to recover, he will not go out with his friends because he knows they will order and he knows that they will feel uncomfortable to order, if the person is still struggling. But, if he's not, then he will go out with them and they can order it with no problem.

But, this a totally other thread.

[joasia]

deleted. duplicate.

[joasia]

Jonathan,

I think the message is more in what they were explaining about the spiritual state of mankind. Eating flesh of another living creature does affect the body. That's why monks are forbidden to eat it. This is a long-time tradition which must have been supported by spiritual teachings which are above scientific explanations.

If abstaining from legitimate pleasures is the reason for fasting, then I should not eat anything or even drink water, which gives me pleasure to quench my thirst. I enjoy vegetable stir fry and peanut butter (natural) on toast. That doesn't violate the fast. I like dark chocolate which doesn't violate the fast. Heck, I like crackers.

Fasting is about eliminating the animal products that enhance our passions. And if you think you are not affected by meat, then you are fooling yourself. Because even the holy fathers and desert fathers avoided meat because of the effects to our system.

Why would the Church instigate fasting meat (and by-products) if it wasn't for spiritual benefit? There's a connection there.

[Barbara]

Great riposte, Joasia.
I was trying to think of how to counter that, but you covered it well.

Personally, I get sick even at the mention or sight of meat.

I haven't eaten any since I was at university. Even then I was never thrilled with it, and probably ate little relatively.

Peanut butter sounded so good when you mentioned it just now.
Maybe i will search for some Organic Almond or Peanut or cashew butter.
I had forgotten entirely about these. They go well with everything and
furnish lots of light nutritious protein .....without the heavy somberness of meat - !

[jgress]

Perhaps I'm fooling myself, but I can't honestly say I've ever felt more passionate when consuming animal products. More satisfied certainly, but not particularly more likely to be angry or lustful. I've struggled just as much with those passions during the fast as outside it.

But this could well be a reflection on my own spiritual life. I think you make a good point that if the Fathers all agree that meat and animal products have this effect, then there is probably something to it. But at the same time, I wouldn't make it a matter of faith, since I believe we can discern the eternal truths about the ascetic life from what may have been merely received secular wisdom at one time. Personally I suspect that the theories about the effects of animal products fall into the same category as geocentrism, the four elements, and other aspects of pre-modern science that we now know are not literally true. But when the Fathers appeal to these outdated theories to make a theological point, the theology remains the same.

In terms of enjoying fasting food, that's certainly allowable. I suppose I would say that, when fasting, I try to eat enjoyable fasting food so as not to be tempted to break the fast, but I never feel as satisfied as when not fasting. I suspect that it is this feeling of dissatisfaction which the Fathers are referring to, but I could be wrong.

[joasia]

Great riposte, Joasia.
I was trying to think of how to counter that, but you covered it well.

Personally, I get sick even at the mention or sight of meat.

I haven't eaten any since I was at university. Even then I was never thrilled with it, and probably ate little relatively.

Peanut butter sounded so good when you mentioned it just now.
Maybe i will search for some Organic Almond or Peanut or cashew butter.
I had forgotten entirely about these. They go well with everything and
furnish lots of light nutritious protein .....without the heavy somberness of meat - !

I have to confess that I like peanut butter with banana and honey. I also sprinkle flax seed powder on it. The flax seed that's sprouted. Don't get the ones that don't say "sprouted"..