A new "walling off" has begun?

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

From my own perspective it was more of a kidnapping of a sick old man, than a leaving of free will. An inposition of another's perseption on a confused personage.

Ekaterina,

From what I remember of the reports from that time and the pictures I saw, the kidnapping of Met. Vitaly by the ROCOR failed - which is why the ROCOR tried other means to get Met. Vitaly (such as lawsuits which also failed). Like you say, its all in our perception.

Even all of the original Orthodox ("Old Calendar") bishops in the 30's were with the new calendar for 12 years before they finally departed. They too never agreed to the change and hoped (and were promised for many years) that there would be a reversal. But alas, they did leave after they realized nothing could be done. There are many other such instances where a heresy is not always preached with "bared head" at first and this causes a great deal of confusion and turmoil until all the facts finally reveal themselves over time. So now today, we see what has happened to the ROCOR and know those many groups and individuals from previous years were telling the truth.

[Ekaterina]

From what I remember of the reports from that time and the pictures I saw, the kidnapping of Met. Vitaly by the ROCOR failed - which is why the ROCOR tried other means to get Met. Vitaly (such as lawsuits which also failed). Like you say, its all in our perception.

Not the "kidnapping" I was referring to, this was a BAD judgement call on the part of many individuals, a consequence to something which started much earlier. I was referring to the event that started this whole mess in the first place. That sad event in NYC.

Katya

[Ekaterina]

QUOTE:

There are many other such instances where a heresy is not always preached with "bared head" at first and this causes a great deal of confusion and turmoil until all the facts finally reveal themselves over time.

I'm not disputing this....

QUOTE:

So now today, we see what has happened to the ROCOR and know

Too early to really make a true judgement. Especially when based on too little fact and no personal (yours) line to information from the participants. Not to mention poor translations of documents into English.

Katya

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

... Especially when based on too little fact and no personal (yours) line to information from the participants. Not to mention poor translations of documents into English.

Hkaterini,

The facts speak for themselves in most cases; it certainly paints a very reliable picture in the case of ROCOR so far.

Too early to really make a true judgement.

On the one hand I agree with this, if you take ROCOR to have come from a canonical position in the first place, then yes, it is still too early to say they have unequivocally apostatized with Stalin’s hand picked KGB/WCC/Monophysite synod.

But in my view they do not come from a canonical (or even Orthodox) position in the first place. A communion and "official" declaration of faith with the Kyprians has long solidified, and for us, Kyprian was deposed a long time ago by our Holy Synod when the ROCOR recognized and communed with us. Quite an irony really.

[Miriam]

in my view they do not come from a canonical (or even Orthodox) position in the first place

ODD:

I don't believe there any churchs carrying the "Orthodox" label, that are truly pure, unblemished and completely "canonical". Each has a skeleton or two in their closets, a corrupt member or two, a hickup, whatever you want to call it. It is after all mankind who makes the rules, interprets the rules, changes the rules, bends the rules and breaks the rules.... all in an attempt to justify their actions as righteous and true.

And it is because men's hearts are never truly pure, that we end up with numerous churches -- all claiming to be the true church-- , number jurisdictions and numerous "truths"....some more so than others.

In the end when we stand before the True Judge, I think we will be hard pressed to justify our "trueness".

Mira

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Miriam,

There is certainly a great misunderstanding today when it comes to the canons. The Holy Canons were never intended to be "laws" like the Roman Catholics, they are pastoral in nature and exist for the healing of souls. Therefore, they are "ideals' and not laws. It might even be said that the Holy Canons were meant to be broken, at least in a sense.

And of course, no bishop or priest is perfect or "pure". The Donatists believed this should be a requirment but they were also cast out of the Church as heretics.

But none of these things have anything to do with the absolute requirement that our bishops, priests, and deacons have an Orthodox confession of faith. True, they may have slipped at one time or another, but then they must also have repented. There is no such thing as heretic clergy; according to the Holy Fathers, heretics are the enemies of Christ, not his shepherds. They have no Apostolic Succession, no Baptism, No Mysteries whatsoever. According to the Holy Fathers, anyone who would be in communion with them is also an enemy of Christ. These are very powerful and frightening words for a person with true faith in Christ and His One Church.

[Ekaterina]

Much has been done, throughout the centuries in the name of "an Orthodox confession of faith", not all of it good and faithful. Not all of it in the spirit of true Orthodoxy. Again as stated before

It is after all mankind who makes the rules, interprets the rules, changes the rules, bends the rules and breaks the rules.... all in an attempt to justify their actions as righteous and true.

Anyone can claim "an Orthodox confession of faith" and even use it to justify themselves, but in the end there is no justification.

And Mira has it right no Orthodox Jurisdiction can truly claim to be "without blemish". We have ALL departed from the true path.

Katya