What is Wrong With Cyprianism?

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Christophoros

Post by Christophoros »

StephenG wrote:

Theophan,

So you're speculating? Have you visited any of their communities and seen the support they have?

I have been, and stayed, with their community at Fili, which enjoys a large support base judging by the number of worshippers in the week and at weekends. And by contrast their poor community on Tinos. Having visited and stayed at both I found nothing sinister.

What is confusing is any attempt to come to terms with the comings and goings of the whole Old Calendarist movement in Greece.

According to the offical Synod in Resistance website, they have 32 churches and 22 monastic communities in a country of 10.7 million people (Greece), nearly all of whom are Orthodox. The only other Synod which has statistics on their website in English is that of Archbishop Makarios of Athens, which claims 78 churches and monasteries combined (but that's from an unofficial website). For comparison, Mother Nectaria's "Evolgeite! A Pilgrim's Guide to Greece" states there are over 1,000 operating monasteries in the State Church in Greece.

The witness of the Old Calendarists (particularly the "Cyprianites," with their excellent publications, videos, etc.) seems to far outweigh their actual numbers. The same can be said for the Romanian Old Calendarists, which, according to a back issue of "Orthodox Tradition", contains under 100 parishes in a country of 21 million, over 18 million of which are Orthodox. (I should note a more recent source places them at about 130 parishes and 34 monastic communities.)

In Christ,
Christopher

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Cyprian
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Post by Cyprian »

Dear Theophan,

1. Did the Romanian Old Calendarists who have an Orthodox ecclesiolgy fall away from the Church by going into Communion with Kyprianos' sect?

This is a diversion from what we are trying to establish, which is whether or not the synod of Kyprianos is heretical or not. Let's establish whether or not the synod of Kyprianos is Orthodox or not first, and only then should we move on to those who are in communion with him.

2.Did ROCOR fall away from the Church by entering in Communion with them, and even stating that they shared the same ecclesiolgy?

Another diversion. Do you want to talk about the Kyprianites and their peculiar ecclesiology or do you want to cloud the situation by bringing in all these other synods into the mix?

3.Is the belief that heretics have Grace until condemned by an Ecumenical council actually heresy or grave error?

Now we are beginning to focus on the matter at hand. Nevertheless, you have still not told us what constitutes a heresy as defined by the Church, so how can you be convinced the Kyprianites are heretics until you provide for us the Church's view of what constitutes a heresy?

In other words, according to your understanding of the teaching of the Church, what is the difference between a heresy and a "grave error"?

You have to define or draw a distinction between the two for us, first. Only then will it be possible to assess whether or not the Kyprianites fall into the former or latter category.

Certainly I find it hard to imagine that the Kyprianite Bishops do not know the truth that this is an idea that is historically indefensable

So are you in essence saying that the Kyprianites are fully aware that they are choosing an errant ecclesiology which has never been put forth by the Church? This is important, because the word heresy derives from the Greek word for choice, does it not?

So obviously heresy involves a willful rejection or opposition to revealed teachings of Holy Church. To speak errantly due to ignorance or simplicity or carelessness is not the same as willful and obstinate opposition to manifestly Divine Truths.

So if you have come to the acknowledgment that his teachings are unorthodox, the next logical questions ought to be:

1) what was his intent in putting forth this strange teaching of his 23 years ago, which is clearly diametrically opposed to the Anathema of 1983 issued just one year prior.

2) has Kyprianos been sufficiently made aware of the fact that his teachings are contrary to Orthodox doctrine

3) and if so, has he stubbornly and willfully maintained his false teachings in spite of the repeated objections and criticisms by Orthodox authorities?

Now let's not play games. Regarding the novel teaching that Kyprianos put forth in 1984 he made no secret that it was offered in opposition to and as an alternative to the Anathema proclaimed by the ROCOR synod one year prior in 1983.

For example, all one must do is read the very first line:

"Those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine and way of life..."

Of course Kyprianos deliberately seeks to oppose this Orthodox declaration.

Do not the ecumenist New Calendarists differ in doctrine and way of life than the true Orthodox Christians who piously and steadfastly uphold the traditions of the Fathers?

But of course they do. The ecumenists pray with Satan; they pray with Legion; they pray with Beelzebub; they pray with Barabbas.

The New Calendarists differ in way of life. They shorten the Holy Apostles Fast, they feast when the Church ought to be fasting, they are schismatics and heretics who persecute the True Orthodox.

So no one will deny that the New Calendarists and the True Orthodox Christians are divided from one another.

But Kyprianos says they are all part of the same Church.

So he has developed his own little "branch theory". Instead of his branches consisting of Orthodox, Papists and Anglicans, who differ in doctrine and way of life...

the branches of his novel conception of the "Church" rather consist of "Old Calendarist" resisters and "New Calendarist" ailing members.

So he simply teaches a novel variation of the two-lung theory.

According to the absurd two-lung theory, Orthodox and Papists are two lungs in the same body of the Church. The Orthodox are the healthy lung, and the Papists are the ailing or diseased lung.

Kyprianos teaches the same theory but has simply changed the parties. Instead of the Orthodox and the Papists being the two lungs, he treats the "resistors" as the healthy lung and the ailing or sick lung is represented by the ecumenist heretics, which he acknowledges to be so, because he speaks often of the "Pan-heresy of Ecumenism".

So he admits the ecumenists are "Pan-heretics", but then (effectively teaches) that they are simply a diseased lung in the same body of the Church.

No real difference than in the situation of the Papists, who are clearly heretics and schismatics, and are still treated as part of the body of Christ by apostate pseudo-Orthodoxy.

No one can with a straight face assert that Kyprianos came up with this novelty inadvertently.

"and who do not distinguish the priesthood and mysteries of the Church from those of the heretics..."

Kyprianos calls ecumenism a pan heresy, and considers ecumenists heretics, yet he fails to distinguish the priesthood and the mysteries of the Church from those heretics he walls off from.

Obviously the goal of Kyprianos from the very start was to speak perverse things, in order to draw away disciples after himself.

Faith and discernment are gifts from God.

Anyone who cannot see that the ecclesiological position put forth by Kyprianos in 1984 is diamterically opposed to the ROCOR Anathema of 1983 has neither considered them both or is simply not interested in the Truth.

Cyprian

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What am I not seeing?

Post by Mark Templet »

First of all, I apologize for not having read this entire thread. I do however want to cover a few points of my own to see what everyone else thinks about them.

1) I hold no personal animosity towards the Cyprianites, neither do I so toward the World Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Protestants, etc. What little interaction I have had with them has been cordial. I try to treat all people I come into contact with nicely (God knows how wretchedly I fail in this). But if one of them asked me what I thought about their ecclesiology, I would be duty bound to the truth to say that there view is heretical. The word heretical itself means to be in error.
2) If we have received the God-inspired Holy Canons of the Church from all the Counsels, then we need to ask a few questions as to how these are applied. Suppose that a priest walks into his Church next Sunday and declares that he is now an atheist to his congregation. Although it will take some time to properly depose him, has he not deposed himself the moment that he violated the Canons? Yes, the procedure of formal removal must take place according to the rules, but is he not convicted by his actions (or beliefs) themselves according to the judgment of the Canons? Our Lord, Jesus Christ, tells us that the sin of adultery occurs the moment we look at another woman with lust. This was the same thing that He fought against with the Pharisees and Sadducees; that a sin was seen as an outward action rather than an inward condition. The question of Grace is clear then, if we remove ourselves from the Church we walk away from such Grace, if not the presence of the Holy Spirit who “art everywhere and fillest all things”.
3) If the Cyprianites, as the True Orthodox, believe that the World Orthodox have walked away from the Church through their disobedience and disregard for the Holy Canons and are in error, i.e. heresy, then are they not removing themselves from such Grace? The Cyprianites say that they cannot pronounce such judgment upon them, but did they not take judgment upon themselves when they violated the First Ecumenical Counsel when the Church’s calendar was set? Is it not the Fathers who officiated at that counsel who condemn their actions? Is it not the Holy Spirit, who inspired such a counsel and led the Fathers to the God-pleasing results, who condemns those that willfully violate the rules? This is not some new topic that needs to be defined and regarded by an Ecumenical Counsel! We have a calendar; we have the forbidding against ecumenism. What more do we need?
4) It seems nice and somehow alluring to say that we can wall ourselves off and yet not judge the World Orthodox. But the lack of calling a spade a spade is a tacit admission of the possibility that it is correct. If the Calendar has been changed without the benefit of an Ecumenical Counsel; if these people have openly prayed and concelebrated with heretics than what more do we need except to admit that they have chosen to walk away from the Grace of the Holy Spirit.

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Benjamin W. C. Waterhouse
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What is Wrong With Cyprianism?

Post by Benjamin W. C. Waterhouse »

Nothing, of course.

In Him
SB

"The Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian adheres wholly to the exact same ecclesiological and dogmatic principles as our Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia,"

Euthymios

Post by Euthymios »

The people of St. Gregory Palamal's Monastery are nutts. That's what's wrong with it. I've been there five times during the 90's. I know of what I speak. And they have absolutely no concept of the virtues of love and humility.

Euthymios

Post by Euthymios »

Euthymios wrote:

The people of St. Gregory Palamal's Monastery are nutts. That's what's wrong with it. I've been there five times during the 90's. I know of what I speak. And they have absolutely no concept of the virtues of love and humility.

Typo: Saint Gregory Palamas Monastery in Etna

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