Address to ROCA, by Bishop Gregory

[Nevski]

Isn't a separation on administrative grounds simply "schism?" If your ruling bishops or first hierarch are not preaching heresy, can there be a canonically justifiable separation for administrative reasons? If Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens is correct in what he stated, then isn't Bishop Gregory of Denver and Colorado totally incorrect in stating that the Lamia Synod has an "unquestionable canonical foundation?" Wasn't Bishop Gregory of Denver and Colorado at one time a member of the church of the Lamia Synod? Why would he leave this church with an "unquestionable canonical foundation" then

http://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa? ... R1181&I=-3

[Methodius]

... and they will know that we are Christians by our love ...

[user_209]

AMEN METHODIOS, I WAS THINKING THE VERY SAME THING. LET US NOT MAKE PETTY JUDGEMENTS. IF I WERE A POTENTIAL CONVERT AND SAW ALL THE BASHING THAT BISHOP GREGORY HAD, IT WOULD COMPEL ME MORE TO FIND OUT WHY HE WAS SO PERSECUTED.

NOW AS A MEMBER OF ROAC, I GUESS SOME WILL SAY I'M BIASED, BUT BISHOP GREGORY IS VERY MUCH A FATHER FIGURE TO ME, AS IS FATHER GEORGE. THEY ARE GOOD AND HOLY MEN, AND I WOULD NO MORE BASH THEM THAN ANY OTHER PRIEST OF GOD!

[mwoerl]

i do not know if the "love" and "bashing" references were directed towards me or not; it does not really matter one way or the other, i will simply say what needs t be said.

when the situation among the various True Orthodox groups is one of mutual and seemingly endless recriminations, i would think it is hardly apropos to direct scriptural quotations concerning "love" to those who have no responsibility for that, uh, let us saym greater displa of the lack of something, whether it be love, or . . .

also, i myself did not intend to "bash" Bishop Gregory. I am simply asking a few questions. if you are new to ROAC, and even new to Orthodoxy, you should know from the get-go that the Orthodox Church does not have "infallible" popes, bishops, or clergy. when somene declared themselves and themselves alone and the few parishes under them on the north american continent to be the sole possessors of true orthodox faith, i would expect that they had better be ready for questions; they had also better understand that these questioons that will be asked them will most definitely include questiona about their past activities.

I would also observe that if these "sole possessors of true orthodoxy" are not willing to entertain questions about their past activities, or try to claim that every action in their past was somehow perfect, i dont think that would -uh- attract people to their standards, so to speak.

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michael woerl

[Bogatyr]

:ohvey: We, resistors, would ask that the same standards be applied in assessing and bashing new calendarists, ecumenists, and sergianists. The topic of this THREAD IS NOT THE INDISCRETIONS of x heirarch or x jurisdiction, BUT A LETTER ADDRESSED TO ROCOR for it to be conscious and careful in its rush to unity with the mp. That is what should be discussed, not pretentious and sophist ad hominem. The point that is completely missed by this opinionated fellow is that he is bashing people who are defending the integrity of the Orthodox Faith. Why? To somehow overcome divisions and bring unity? On the contrary, to promote acrimony even more. I find it wholeheartedly suspicious when this fellow, who sounds ever more like a new calendarist bashing "fundamentalists", NEGLECTS to address the outright APOSTASY swallowing whole "world orthodoxy". Not once in all of this has he addressed even one legitimate point of contention, like mr. putin's plan for a papal concordat. He is more interested in making AD HOMINEM attacks against Bishops and casting resistors in a negative light. I wonder when "old believer" comments will start coming up. We've already heard, "schismatic and extremist". Let's just apply one test to him. Let his identity be anonymous. Now ask the question: Would what he has contributed be heard amongst the antiochians, the liberal cadres of the oca and the goa regarding Old Calendar Resistors? There you have your answer of whose side he is on.
Lastly, how can one hope to have a "regular" situation amongst the Greek Old Calendarists after years of persecution and outright infiltration of the masonic Greek secret police? It would be like asking for a "regular" situation amongst the Catacomb Bodies in Russia during the soviet era. One would argue that Greece is a "free country". The only retort would be, explain that to raped nuns, desecrated churches and disenfranchised old calendarists, who are BARRED from pursuing studies in state institutions. They pay taxes but cannot participate in the national discussion. Tell that to the monks of Esphigmenou today, to the monks of St. Elias Skete. I don't condone the multiplicity of jurisdictions and the unscrupulous activities of some. But it would be kind if some BALANCE was written, such as the SECOND MARRIAGE OF A PRIEST WHILE HIS WIFE'S DEATH BED WAS STILL WARM TO A WOMAN HE CONVINCED INTO DIVORCING HER HUSBAND and how some new calendarist heirarchical paragon of unity blessed that or PLASTIC SPOONS USED IN COMMUNION AND "DISPOSED". If that is the standard of harmony and unity, I prefer the status quo anyday, but, then again, this fellow lacks the intellectual honesty to address that. He prefers to attack a Bishop WHO clearly is speaking out and reaching out to a jurisdiction he devoted most of his life to. This is craven ad hominem.
ORTHODOXIA I THANATOS!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky

[user_209]

It was a general comment to the thread not specific to any one person. However all allegations against metropolitan +valentine have been cleared and there are no charges pending against him. As for bishop + Gregory, as has been said he does not enjoy being a bishop specifically but would rather be a simple monk.

SO MY ADVICE IS "STOP THE MADNESS!" LETS ALL SHOW HOW CHRISTIAN WE ARE BY OUR CHARITY

[mwoerl]

i do not know if the "love" and "bashing" references were directed towards me or not; it does not really matter one way or the other, i will simply say what needs t be said.

when the situation among the various True Orthodox groups is one of mutual and seemingly endless recriminations, i would think it is hardly apropos to direct scriptural quotations concerning "love" to those who have no responsibility for that, uh, let us say, greater display of the lack of something, whether it be love, or . . .

also, i myself did not intend to "bash" Bishop Gregory. I am simply asking a few questions. if you are new to ROAC, and even new to Orthodoxy, you should know from the get-go that the Orthodox Church does not have "infallible" popes, bishops, or clergy, whose every word MUST be accepted as Gospel Truth, and who are "above" questions. when someone declares themselves and themselves alone, and a few parishes under to be the sole possessors of true orthodox faith on the north american contintent, i would expect that they had better be ready for some rather hard questions; they had also better understand that these questions that will be asked them will most definitely include questions about their past activities.

I would also observe that if these "sole possessors of true orthodoxy" (this meaning ANY who make such claims, not specifically Bishop Gregory) are not willing to entertain questions about their past activities, or try to claim that every action in their past was somehow all perfect and all blameless, i dont think such an attitude would attract people to their standards, so to speak.

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michael woerl[/quote]