TOCs repeating history: Council of Florence

[jdigrande]

The crucial confrontation between the West and the Orthodox Church occurred at the Council of Florence. And it was during the debate on the Filioque that the decisive moment occurred that determined the entire Council

After 230 years of the Western Inquisition led by the Dominicans in the main, the Dominican debating St. Mark of Ephesus asked a question concerning the doctrine exclaimed in 1285 and 1341/51 by St, Gregory of Cyprus and St. Gregory Palamas.

This question was based on the Letter To Marinus from St. Maximus the Confessor where St. Maximus used the the term "through the Son." The Latins in 1285 and 1453 were trying to equate "through the Son with "from the Son" as they tried in 1285 (the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son: the inserted Filioque).

After the question was posed by the Latins, there was a recess in the proceedings. St. Mark wanted to reply to the question but the Tsar and Patriarch forbade him from doing so. They were both Hellenists first and Orthodox second at best.

Our saints were and are not infallible or impeccable.

How can we judge them but we are required to judge the action that occurred right after this.

St. Mark obeyed his superior in rank (the Patriarch of Constantinople) and Tsar Joseph the Horrible who had nothing to do with this according the canons of the Orthodox Church.

Should he have disobeyed the order? What was the justification for not proclaiming the truth to the heretics asking an honest question (for once)?

The historical account is clear. He remained silent and never spoke another word at the Council.

He did not agree to the union but the rest of the Hellenists did and signed the union. The Georgian bishop was so sick of the spectacle that he hired a fishing boat and snuck out of Italy before the false union was signed.

Who had the uncreated grace of the sacraments in Florence? The answer of course was the Orthodox.

Christ is crystal clear: "To whom much is given, much is expected."

The Latin heretics had nothing and so very little if anything was expected. But the real question was if we the Orthodox at Florence and even today have met the expectations of Christ vis a vis the heretical and pagan world?

And the answer then and now is has to be a resounding no in my arrogant opinion.

It is fashionable today in the TOC's to stare down our elect noses (which have been granted the uncreated grace of the sacraments) at the heretics, pagans, ecumenists et al who possess nothing. We puff up our chests with Hellenistic pride before the demon of reason, Athena, thousands of her dime-store demonic statues and her polluted polis.

We possess the true faith and want to let everyone know it.

We act like the Native tribes of the New World and actually act like the tribes today in many ways. I have worked with these tribes for almost 40 years and they exhibit the same sense of trauma, victimhood, corruption and parochial small mindedness that the TOC's have today. After all 1453 and the multi-pronged attacks of Islam, Masonry, the Latins, the Protestants, Communism, Feminism and Humanism was not far removed from 1492.

The Plains Indians hated each other far more than the wagons full of white people moving through their lands. The tribes were more interested in stealing each others horses, counting coup and sneering at the tribes surrounding them. All the while a host (30 million strong) of Masons and Latins who were armed to the teeth and thought they possessed a masonic manifest destiny to destroy them slowly tightened the noose.

"Thou Shalt Not Steal" and "Thou Shalt Not Murder" and "Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbors Goods" were the last things the whites were concerned with.

A portion of the Sioux in 1890 acted much like a segment of the TOC today and proclaimed that the end times were here and they danced the Ghost Dance at Wounded Knee, South Dakota without ceasing and were gunned down like buffalo.

Now our little tribes ("Fear Not Small Flock.") are surrounded by 7.8 billion heretics, apostates, pagans et al. And we are still engaged in our little canonical squabbles that can easily be dealt with by someone or a group who can "cast a cold eye" on them.

But our major impediment is the inablity or will to pull the beam from our own eyes. Instead of heaping all the blame onto the heretics (in this case Renaissance heretics and their sculptural perversions), why not "cast a cold eye" on ourselves? Lets direct our elect noses at our blindness to our own
TOC sins.

Wasn't that the message to the Jews in Babylonia? Stop blaming the pagans first. God is His Mercy did not relent until the Jews started pointing the finger at their own hearts.

We (the Orthodox) had no problem kissing the ring of the Masonic Patriarch of Constantinople (Joachim III) 100 plus years ago. We had no problem not punishing Plethon for his Liturgy to Zeus 575 years ago. We had no problem with monstrous Tsars (like Joseph, Peter, Catherine the Horribles) sticking their elect noses into theology and the governance of the Church without any episcopal or Synodal punishment whatsoever.

Instead of confronting our past with a cold eye to ourselves first, we sit and weep by the waters of Babylon downing shots of vodka and ouzo (which flow through our monasteries too) and heaping scorn and hatred on the Babylonians and their perversions! But we do that after we heap scorn on the little tribes surrounding us.

But what do expect from people devoid of the uncreated grace of the sacraments? The answer of course is nothing.

The best thing for an elect nose to do is not to stare down at the rabble but to bury it in the earth in a full prostration,from which it will return (dust to dust) and beg for the gift of humility.

Want to point a finger? lets start with pointing it at ourselves.

Isn't it time to sober up? After all as an Orthodox Paul Revere would say, "The Demons are Coming."

[Maria]

I have moved this topic from the public forums into the private forum for obvious reasons as any Intra-TOC discussion and self-examination should be held in private.

In Christ,
Maria
Administrator

Yes, divisions among the TOCs are scandalous, yet what caused these divisions in the first place? Hurt feelings, pride, arrogance, lack of repentance, perhaps some jealousy at not being consecrated, etc. These unrepentant sins were followed by the far greater sins of schisms and heresies.

Schism and heresy are deadly sins akin to murder for they lead souls into damnation. Schism and heresy are related for when one commits the deadly sin of schism, heresy is just around the corner due to the lack of grace.

We saw this scenario unfold at HTM in Boston. HTM schismed in 1986 immediately after the late Elder Panteleimon was charged by ROCOR with sexually abusing his monks, but HTM turned around and then blamed ecumenism within ROCOR to hide this atrocity, this horrific sickness within HTM. After the schism, HOCNA adopted and promulgated the heresies of Awake Sleeper and Name-Worshiping.

Note that the act of abusing his monks, even though a grievous sin, was not as bad as the schism which occurred to avoid justice. Although the schism occurred in 1986, it took Elder Panteleimon 26 years before he finally confessed these sins of sexual abuse in 2012 to the monastery's brotherhood. Admission of these sins by the Elder and accusations of heresy by HOCNA's priests who openly challenged HOCNA's hierarchy opened the floodgates which resulted in almost half of HOCNA's parishes, priests, and faithful laity leaving HOCNA. Most joined the Synod under Archbishop Kallinikos.

[Maria]

I found this post on a Catholic website for Trads. I will not link it as I do not want you to search, find it, and then join just to make a counter post. Why start another fire? There are already enough fires to fight.

Instead start praying, chant the Paracleisis to the Theotokos, and above all avoid toxic people who like to spread rumors, argue theological points ad nauseum, and cause more divisions.

When you read the post below, substitute GOC or TOC for "Traditional Catholics."
Substitute Divine Liturgy for "Mass."

It seems like we Orthodox Christians are experiencing similar divisions.
This is not of God, but due to demonic pride.

Should we True Traditional Orthodox Christians unite simply because it would provide more venues to attend the Divine Liturgy? Heavens, no.

Should we ignore our divisions, and go to communion at the different factions, like ROCA, ROAC, RTOC, and Greek TOCs.

No! If we were discovered, and people do talk, this act of Old Calendar Ecumenism would create more problems and scandals, and we would find ourselves excommunicated and not welcomed by any group.

...
95% of trad clerics are part of organized groups. All trad groups

1) are opposed to each other,
2) hold different views on the “speculative theology topics of the day” (NFP, BOD, Sedevactism, V2/new mass),
3) consider all other groups to be in error, and
4) rarely, if ever, work together, as evidenced by each having their own seminaries, chapels and schools.

All of the above facts cause division, promote discord and prohibit the growth of traditionalism. Most of the blame is on the leadership of the groups, and not on the individual priests, who can’t be blamed for the policies of said group. The leaders have a responsibility to preach the faith, spread the mass and teach families, not push agendas and grow their membership.

Most priests naturally care for the group they belong to and most perform many sacrifices for their flocks, but they will also naturally absorb their group’s mentality and thus, be an agent of division, even if indirectly. (Americans can’t help but “pick sides” and have a sports-minded “I win, you lose” attitude. This anti-catholic ideal has permeated American traditionalism unfortunately). But, again, most of the blame goes to the leadership of these groups (some are more guilty than others).

If simple priests of these groups were allowed to collaborate, I’ll bet many would. Why do some cities need 4-5 masses a Sunday (ie Cincinnati, St Mary’s, Post Falls), and each said by a different group, while people in other cities have only 1 mass a month? There are many examples like this. If providing the mass/sacraments were the main priority, then groups would work together. Instead they compete for laity, and for the # of chapels on their websites. The laity will never get along unless the leaders at the top do so first.

We all need to pray for unity.