Accounts of Cyprianism in ROCIE-V?

[Priest Siluan]

What do you mean by that? Did they break away from another Synod?

Their bishops were consecrated uncanically, that is the main reason, but there are others as well...

[Justice]

What do you mean by that? Did they break away from another Synod?

Their bishops were consecrated uncanically, that is the main reason, but there are others as well...

I'd really like to know all of the reasons. Does anybody have any information?

[d9popov]

It is difficult to get information on the various ROCiE fragments; or, sometimes, there are too many contradictory claims available. Even if a fragment could support its claim to apostolic succession of their consecrations, there is no way they can support their extreme isolation, both from other bishops in North America and from bishops in Russia and Ukraine. The local bishops should be in one local church, whereas the relationship between North America and Russia should be one of respect for local autonomies. ROCiE fragments in North America have often not respected the ROAC in the homeland and have sometimes attempted to rule the homeland from the diaspora. Now, some in Russia use a heavy hand in North America. There is also some ethnophyletism among several ROCiE or ROCOR fragments that contributes to isolation from non-Russian groups in the same nation. Overall, ROCOR in the diaspora and the ROCOR-derived groups in Russia and Ukraine have fragmented into numerous groups, for numerous reasons. It is truly a tragedy.

There is also the problem that some Great Russians have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for those who say "I am Ukrainian, not Russian, not 'Little Russian.' " Some Russians treat a Ukrainian national and ethnic identity as if it were a heresy. Some Ukrainians have used the idea of an autocephalous Ukrainian Church as a vehicle for introducing modernism and revisionsism into the Church. But today, the Ukrainian national and ethnic identity is a fact for millions of people and cannot be reversed. Allegiances in Eastern Ukraine are complex. So we have people with various approaches to the Russian/Ukrainian issue and this causes dissension also among some traditional Orthodox.

Even though these ROCiE fragments claim to preserve the traditional Orthodox Faith of Saint Philaret, they are quite isolated from other bishops. Personally, I believe that there should be an autonomous True Orthodox Church in Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the USA and Canada, as well as Cyprus, the Serbian lands, the Ohrid archbishopric in the Republic of Macedonia, Greece, and Romania. Members of the ROCOR fragments often see themselves as strongly Russian, but they cannot get along even with other Russian Orthodox traditionalists, let along with Greeks, Ukrainians, Serbs, etc. If we put the Faith first and also have a healthy (but not exaggerated) respect for ethnic sensibilities and political differences, that could help improve matters. There is a danger that the children in these isolated ROCiE groups will lose an Orthodox identity altogether, and assimilate into the local secular culture or local religion. That is another reason why it is important to return to the idea of a local Orthodox Church in each locale where there are significant Orthodox faithful: local Orthodox Churches with local bishops and clergy who can teach the faith to those born and raised in the particular area. In many cases, these local autocephalous churches should simply follow current political boundaries; in other cases there is no need to move beyond the precedent of an autocephalous church including two nations. For example, there is much precedent for the USA and Canada being in one church, as there is precedent for Serbia and Montenegro being in one church. In other cases (such as Kiev / Moscow and the Serbs / Ohrid) there is precedence for independence.

But, I think it is clear that people in North America trying to pastor people in Russia, or people in Greece trying to pastor people in North America brings great problems. The ROCiE fragments in North America should seek out other traditional bishops in North America. The groups in Russia (RTOC, two ROAC synods, Metropolitan Damaskin, others) should talk to one another more. We need to return to the apostolic principle of local bishops pastoring a local flock and the apostolic principle of local bishops respecting the autonomy of bishops in other autocephalous locales. I worry greatly about the ROCOR fragments. The large ones (ROCOR-MP and ROCOR-Agafangel) have gone ecumenist and semi-ecumenist, respectively. The small ROCiE fragments (which actually and rightfully oppose ecumenism) may disappear because of their isolation from other traditional Orthodox.

[jdigrande]

I want to also ask that question. How does ROCOR/V (Vladimir) not have any canonical foundation?

[d9popov]

Recently, Archbishop Tikhon of Omsk praised Father Victor Melehov for leaving ROCOR in 1986, because of the impermissible ecumenism tolerated by Metropolitan Vitaly starting in 1986. Bishop Gregory Grabbe also left ROCOR shortly thereafter and affiliated with the ROAC under Metropolitan Valentin of Suzdal. In fact, an estimated 40 or more clergy from various parts of the diaspora left Metropolitan Vitaly because they believed that he was in the process of falling under the anathema of 1983. Countless clergy in Russian and Ukraine also either were pushed away by Vitaly or left Vitaly. The situation in Masonville from 2001 to 2006 was chaotic: the metropolitan was in declining health, he was manhandled and kidnapped by the Lavrites, and contradictory decrees on major missues e.g., Cyprian of Phyle) were issued---and it was impossible for anyone to know which decrees were based on real information and deliberation, and which were not. Yet Mansonville, despite its own chaos, thought it could pass judgments on what was going on in Russia and Ukraine! Out of Mansonville, several fragments emerged: Vladimir, Anthony Orlov, Damaskin. I believe that all of these three intervened in Russia, even though Metropolitan Valentin already had a real ROAC synod in Russia. The RTOC formed another group. The ROAC split, with a provisional synod also in Saint Petersburg, in addition to the main synod in Suzdal. The RTOC-Tikhon has also experienced instability in Russia, Ukraine, and North America. I pray that the true Orthodox will unite in North America, in Russia, and in Ukraine, in three autocephalous churches. I pray that Metropolitan Vladimir will not be content with isolation but will reach out to a true Orthodox synod that has greater stability and a clearer foundation than his does.

[Barbara]

Thank you for your deeply thought out ideas, d9popov. Absolutely, I agree. The True Orthodox HAVE TO do better than what they have so far achieved. Your proposals sound practical.

How can this sensible grand scheme be implemented ?

[Agios_Irineos]

Thank you for your deeply thought out ideas, d9popov. Absolutely, I agree. The True Orthodox HAVE TO do better than what they have so far achieved. Your proposals sound practical.

How can this sensible grand scheme be implemented ?

Approaching one another in charity rather than with polemics would be a start. Words are nice, but if our actions don't reflect the words we speak, then it's all show and pretense.