Seraphim Rose on the Matthewites

[Maria]

I have split this thread where there is a clear change in topic discussing the ROCOR and freemasonry.

To read this new discussion, please visit: http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 30&t=12437

In Christ,
Maria
Administrator

[Isaakos]

HEY guys!

It seems that there is one major issue being overlooked here- the temptation from the right.

Now, holding to a strict position is not the same as being a pharisee. I myself would agree that after 1924 the Archbishop of Athens proved HIMSELF to be schismatic, but if you will remember, he himself pushed the calendar change through unilaterally, it was not voted on by the synod members nor was it even embraced willfully by the majority of them, Maria you can read that in Fr. Stephens book on the GOC history.

Therefore immediately after 1924 it is not appropriate to speak of the institutions themselves as schismatics, but individuals. And the Archbishop Chrysostomos and his counterpart in Constantinople were certainly so and scandalous. But the schism was creeping, and only after 1935, with the good witness goven by the 3 bishops who abandoned communion with the Archbishop, can we really speak of the synod of Greece as a whole as being culpable and involved in the Schism of Chrysostomos, for now they had no excuse when hope for a reprieve was extinguished before their eyes.

But I think one thing for sure the Old Calendarist and True Orthodox DO need to make clear in order to NOT be schismatic is that they are the TEMPORARY and PROVISIONAL inheritors of the local church structures, not the authors or the canonical heirs of them.

For example, Metropolitan Matthew did not create the Archbishopric of Athens. The Patriarchate of Constantinople did. And it must be made clear that his assumption of the role of Archbishop was neither canonical or regular, but irregular. However it could be called necessary because of the state of emergency created by the Schismatic Archbishop and his synod, and therefore justified for the good of the faithful UNTIL SUCH TIME as the innovators return to tradition.

Thats the key I think to keep from being perceived as schismatics- what the True Orthodox are doing is temporary and provisional until the official local churches repent.

It was in that context that Chrysostomos Kabourides called the GOC a “movement” and not a church. He was actually correct in the sense that the GOC was not the creation of a new separate Church, but a movement within the Church of Greece. But it became necessary for the movement to assume a provisional control of the structures until such time as local churches repent.

Remember, its not so much the position of strictness, its our attitudes. We need to be healed from spiritual pride and phariseeism really before we can handle these issues at all. Otherwise we will make spiritual errors, such as calling prudence and charity “indifference.” That is coming from a skewed perspective.

Christ is risen!

[Justice]

HEY guys!

It seems that there is one major issue being overlooked here- the temptation from the right.

Now, holding to a strict position is not the same as being a pharisee. I myself would agree that after 1924 the Archbishop of Athens proved HIMSELF to be schismatic, but if you will remember, he himself pushed the calendar change through unilaterally, it was not voted on by the synod members nor was it even embraced willfully by the majority of them, Maria you can read that in Fr. Stephens book on the GOC history.

Therefore immediately after 1924 it is not appropriate to speak of the institutions themselves as schismatics, but individuals. And the Archbishop Chrysostomos and his counterpart in Constantinople were certainly so and scandalous. But the schism was creeping, and only after 1935, with the good witness goven by the 3 bishops who abandoned communion with the Archbishop, can we really speak of the synod of Greece as a whole as being culpable and involved in the Schism of Chrysostomos, for now they had no excuse when hope for a reprieve was extinguished before their eyes.

But I think one thing for sure the Old Calendarist and True Orthodox DO need to make clear in order to NOT be schismatic is that they are the TEMPORARY and PROVISIONAL inheritors of the local church structures, not the authors or the canonical heirs of them.

For example, Metropolitan Matthew did not create the Archbishopric of Athens. The Patriarchate of Constantinople did. And it must be made clear that his assumption of the role of Archbishop was neither canonical or regular, but irregular. However it could be called necessary because of the state of emergency created by the Schismatic Archbishop and his synod, and therefore justified for the good of the faithful UNTIL SUCH TIME as the innovators return to tradition.

Thats the key I think to keep from being perceived as schismatics- what the True Orthodox are doing is temporary and provisional until the official local churches repent.

It was in that context that Chrysostomos Kabourides called the GOC a “movement” and not a church. He was actually correct in the sense that the GOC was not the creation of a new separate Church, but a movement within the Church of Greece. But it became necessary for the movement to assume a provisional control of the structures until such time as local churches repent.

Remember, its not so much the position of strictness, its our attitudes. We need to be healed from spiritual pride and phariseeism really before we can handle these issues at all. Otherwise we will make spiritual errors, such as calling prudence and charity “indifference.” That is coming from a skewed perspective.

Christ is risen!

Nice to finally meet you Isaakos!

[Barbara]

That suggestion of Isaakos' sounds eminently reasonable. I hope the appropriate people can consider that intelligent-sounding approach.

Isaakos, which Saint is your avatar ? It faintly looks like St Tikhon of Zadonsk, but I figure it must be Greek.

[Maria]

Dear Issakos,

It is good to see that you are still among the living.

Which synod are you now embracing?

It sounds like you might be accepting the position of Archbishop Kallinikos and his union with the former SiR, but you address neither the Metropolitan of Florina, Chrysostomos, nor St. Matthew as saints. However, both Archbishop Kallinikos and Archbishop Stephanos claim the title of Archbishop of Athens.

Note that the New Calendarist schismatic also claims the title of Archbishop of Athens, and indeed he is a heretic. Look at his current actions in defrocking priests who disagreed with the heretical Council of Crete in 2016.

So, yes this situation would seem to be highly uncanonical as there are three claimants to the throne of Athens. However, I would not bow down and kiss the ring of this pretender, the New Calendarist schismatic and heretic as that would be an act of apostasy.

In Christ,
Maria

[Isaakos]

Dear Issakos,

It is good to see that you are still among the living.

Which synod are you now embracing?

It sounds like you might be accepting the position of Archbishop Kallinikos and his union with the former SiR, but you address neither the Metropolitan of Florina, Chrysostomos, nor St. Matthew as saints. However, both Archbishop Kallinikos and Archbishop Stephanos claim the title of Archbishop of Athens.

Note that the New Calendarist schismatic also claims the title of Archbishop of Athens, and indeed he is a heretic. Look at his current actions in defrocking priests who disagreed with the heretical Council of Crete in 2016.

So, yes this situation would seem to be highly uncanonical as there are three claimants to the throne of Athens. However, I would not bow down and kiss the ring of this pretender, the New Calendarist schismatic and heretic as that would be an act of apostasy.

In Christ,
Maria

I remain in a state of discernment. I never embraced formally the synod of Metropolitan Kirykos.

What I see objectively is that the pride of individuals is our greatest enemy, that and personality worship. We are not united because we know better than everyone else.

So what is a key to me as I discern is to see which groups are the most insular and run away, lol. Christ unites. It is nice to see Cyprus finally has its own Archbishopic for the GOC there Maria. And the current Archbishop looks much like the Metropolitan Epiphanios of Kition of blessed memory.

I WOULD say in agreement with Metropolitan Demetrios of the GOCK, “Don’t make a dogma where there is no dogma.”

How many petty issues are we going to continuously blow into Dogmatic issues? That’s how the Makarian Synod arose. We don’t like the Archbishop handling funds and placing them into an officially incorporated organization. Oh no, ecclesiological heresy!!!!

That’s what I am trying to avoid. We can be right and still be fanatics. Which synods are not characterized by fanaticism, are characterized by order, and who show great signs of unity, growth, and a general humility?

Sign me up with them!

[Justice]

Dear Issakos,

It is good to see that you are still among the living.

Which synod are you now embracing?

It sounds like you might be accepting the position of Archbishop Kallinikos and his union with the former SiR, but you address neither the Metropolitan of Florina, Chrysostomos, nor St. Matthew as saints. However, both Archbishop Kallinikos and Archbishop Stephanos claim the title of Archbishop of Athens.

Note that the New Calendarist schismatic also claims the title of Archbishop of Athens, and indeed he is a heretic. Look at his current actions in defrocking priests who disagreed with the heretical Council of Crete in 2016.

So, yes this situation would seem to be highly uncanonical as there are three claimants to the throne of Athens. However, I would not bow down and kiss the ring of this pretender, the New Calendarist schismatic and heretic as that would be an act of apostasy.

In Christ,
Maria

I remain in a state of discernment. I never embraced formally the synod of Metropolitan Kirykos.

What I see objectively is that the pride of individuals is our greatest enemy, that and personality worship. We are not united because we know better than everyone else.

So what is a key to me as I discern is to see which groups are the most insular and run away, lol. Christ unites. It is nice to see Cyprus finally has its own Archbishopic for the GOC there Maria. And the current Archbishop looks much like the Metropolitan Epiphanios of Kition of blessed memory.

I WOULD say in agreement with Metropolitan Demetrios of the GOCK, “Don’t make a dogma where there is no dogma.”

How many petty issues are we going to continuously blow into Dogmatic issues? That’s how the Makarian Synod arose. We don’t like the Archbishop handling funds and placing them into an officially incorporated organization. Oh no, ecclesiological heresy!!!!

That’s what I am trying to avoid. We can be right and still be fanatics. Which synods are not characterized by fanaticism, are characterized by order, and who show great signs of unity, growth, and a general humility?

Sign me up with them!

So you believe the GOC-S is fanatical? If so, where have they "made a dogma where there is no dogma?