Ongoing Unity Chats: Macarios, Milan, Avlona, LoBue, ROAC

[Maria]

Wow this topic is all over the place. But at least some have cautioned restraint in jumping to conclusions. I can confirm that there was absolutely no work done in Georgia between ROAC and HOCNA for the expressed purpose of unification. Quite the opposite, it was an opportunity for those few bishops involved to get to know one another personally. Metroplitan Gregory was extremely gracious and kind and showed our ROAC heirarchs around his native land. People asked basic questions and listened to each other's answers about who everyone is. That's it. It was only the start of even coming close to thinking about dealing with all this. And yet their are already rumors on this very site about bishops "falling." This should be shameful. I suppose the only way some see dealing with controversial issues is through harshness rather than people getting to know each other and gradually clarifying and resolving heretical things to the truth. ROAC is not about to immediately join with HOCNA, these things move at the speed of bishops, which is usually quite slow. In all my time in ROAC I have never seen our synod make rash decisions or join with people for convenience or worldly advancement. If we wanted that they would have surrendered to the MP a long time ago rather than suffering for Traditional Orthodoxy.

Thank you, Father Mark for clarifying this matter.

Yes, rumors have been spreading all over the place, and Met. Gregory's letter only added fuel to the fire. The Metropolitan should have been more discrete in wording his letter, especially using the phrases and clauses that I have bolded below.

Astonishingly, this latest wave of persecution seems to have been triggered, at least in part, by Metropolitan Theodore’s friendship with our Synod. I personally know Metropolitan Theodore. In fact, this past July, I had the honor of hosting him in Georgia, along with two other bishops of his Synod, in order to become better acquainted with each other and slowly to advance the friendship between our Churches.

I wanted to get to the bottom of these rumors that I have been hearing and squash them, because I have great respect toward the ROAC, and would like them to remain firm in the faith.

When any one bishop shows charity towards those in opposing synods, then others immediately think of the unity talks in which the Kallinikos Synod has engaged almost all those in True Orthodoxy.

My own Archbishop Stephanos has also been falsely accused of engaging in unity talks with the Kallinikos Synod simply because he also shows great charity as the defrocked Monk Kallinikos was previously with us. So when Archbishop Stephanos shows kindness and mercy as a loving father should toward his erring children, vicious rumors have been spread against him by the Matthewites under Monk Kyrikos who was deposed in 2005 for schism and heresy.

[Mark Templet]

Thank you Maria, yes we too take the stance of being friendly and kind. We too have had discussions with other groups and we will continue to. I personally have friends from all over. This is something that actually helps reduce the chances of misinformation spreading. When someone says something that sounds far fetched we can say to ourselves, "That doesn't sound right, I know Father So-and-so, he wouldn't be involved with that." Then you can pick up the phone and get more information. What Metroplitan Gregory did was to be friendly, he is a very kind man. We have responded with similar kindness, so that down the road things get worked out peacefully. Like the old saying goes: you catch more flies with honey than you do vinegar. And furthermore as a Southerner, I take hospitality very seriously!
And yes the FSB grilled Metroplitan Theodore for that and so much else, but that was going to happen long before they went to Georgia.

[Barbara]

Fr. Mark,

Is there any news ? Have the 2 ROAC Hierarchs been released, then ?
It's great that you are available to explain everything. A few lines here or there on Portal-Credo or anywhere don't provide enough of the background. Hence speculation arises.
Maria is right that Met Gregory of Hocna did make it sound more advanced along the 'courtship phase' than what seemed logical.

I know hierarchs like Abp Andrei of Pavlovskoe and Rockland wouldn't be taken in for a minute and consider unity with a jurisdiction supporting the heresy of Name-Worshipping, and the Awake Sleeper [ which strikes me as more and more preposterous each time I have read the definition of it over the years ! ]

Still, to discuss some points of common interest with other True Orthodox jurisdictions is wise. Sometimes, it could be fruitful to compare notes ; also talks would help relieve the stress of feeling isolated and under attack from World Orthodoxy. So such informal contacts can enhance understanding and are unlikely to be harmful.

The other point is that there aren't too many other True Orthodox jurisdictions active in Georgia. So to be shown around by a hierarch who knows the land as well as shares many viewpoints would be far more beneficial than to find guides from the Georgian Patriarchate who would lack understanding of the TO ecclesiology.

Yes, I have always heard that Georgians are marvelously hospitable. Southern peoples all over the world seem to display this virtue in abundance !
I can't remember if the country of Georgia's goes back to the instructions of their national poet, Rustaveli, but that concept is deeply rooted in the culture. All the better, then, that the ROAC hierarchs were able to be greeted with a warm reception.

All the other information helps bring light to help sort out the muddy waters. I mean about the new appellations for the 2 hierarchs, Gregory Lurie and the former Met Rafael, now Met Damascene. How did the latter manage that name change ?!

[Maria]

All the other information helps bring light to help sort out the muddy waters. I mean about the new appellations for the 2 hierarchs, Gregory Lurie and the former Met Rafael, now Met Damascene. How did the latter manage that name change ?!

Has Met. Rafael changed his name, or was he replaced?
I find no information about him when I did a search online.

Upon further investigation, I found these facebook posts on Deacon Joseph Suaiden's wall:

Deacon Joseph Suaiden: EDIT: Whoops, it was "Damascene of Moscow," not "Raphael of Moscow". The good person who emailed me this monstrosity said it was Raphael of Moscow. That said, Raphael has still not retracted, so I imagine he's next. ...

Richard Garza So, does that mean the True & Canonical are in Communion once again? Or am I reading that wrong?

• Hieromonk Enoch: No. This has to do with one traditionalist Russian jurisdiction, the Synod under Met. Damascene, and the breakaway group from another Russian traditionalist jurisdiction, ROAC, joining into Communion. However, both have accept and espouse (and in case of the "Bishops Councils of the ROAC" which is not the true ROAC, was founded upon Imiaslavism in their break) the Imiaslavist heresy (i.e. the teaching that the Names of God are Uncreated and must be given Divine Adoration). Met. Damascene's group has recently accepted fully the Imiaslavist heresy.

Vladimir Moss: False and false are in communion - for the first time. Luriye is the great heresiarch of the True Orthodox Church, while Damascene is an anti-semitic fanatic. Since Luriye is a Jews, a descendant of the Kabbalist Isaac Lurye who in 1666 proclaimed himself the Messiah, it is a very intriguing union!

• Vladimir Moss Lurye is a famous Soviet Jewish family. I don't think they would deny their Jewishness - not in a religious sense, but in an ethnic sense.

  Deacon Joseph Suaiden It should be noted Luriye himself kind of proudly notes that fact

Hieromonk Enoch Met. Damascene, I believe, originally derived from some Vialy 'line' consecrations. But, as Vladimir Moss notes, he is extremely ultra-nationalists and hates anything non-Russian (in one case, some clergy, when they were discovered not to be sufficiently Russian, were told to leave the jurisdiction, if they were not willing to do everything in Slavonic, speak Russian, etc, since Russians are apparently, in his view, the new chosen people). Damascene has been moving in the Imiaslavist direction for some time (I saw this last year with his statements). Imiaslavism is now becoming the second big heresy

Hieromonk Enoch Imiaslavism has proponents in the Moscow Patriarchate; for example, the de facto second in charge of the MP, Met. Hilarion (Alfeyev), is a prominent defender of Imiaslvaism. In Greece, the New Calendar Hierarch, Met. Hierotheo of Nafpaktos, has spoken in defense of the "names of God being Uncreated Energies" (i.e. effectively imiaslavism).

What everyone forgets is that just because you reject Imiaslavism, doesn't mean you reject Essence-Energies distinction. We can call the Essence of God by no names, since It is totally unknowable, and beyond all possible comprehension by created beings; however, God's Operations (Energies), which are Uncreated, and therefore Divine and God, can be called by different names, because they are Communicable to us created beings. However, naming things, or giving them appellations, as St. Anastaius notes, is not the same as saying the names we give are God themselves. Even in the cases of icons, we give reverence to the icons (like we do Our Lord's holy name), but, they are created vehicles for honouring God, or Our Lady (and, in the case of Christ's name, we honour Him through this created name, "Jesus", etc., without saying this name equals Uncreatedness).

Hieromonk Enoch gives a very good definition of Name-Worshiping immediately above. I have bolded this portion of his post.

[Mark Templet]

Metroplitan Theodore and Bishop Irinarch were both released the same day. They are at home but with absolutely no means of communication.

As for Metroplitan Gregory, he is very enthusiastic about helping us and calling attention to the situation, which would be appreciated from anyone. If he wants to plow through all the impediments for unity, then we will do so in a friendly but honest manner. All of that is certainly above my pay grade. Right now we are happy to have him help call attention to our plight and I wish other TO heirarchs would quickly do the same.

[Maria]

The latest news at HOCNA -- they have broken unity with Macarios and are now autocephalous.
I am not familiar with all these terms autocephalous, etc.

Perhaps someone more in tune with these terms can explain all this intrigue.

[d9popov]

The latest news at HOCNA -- they have broken unity with Macarios and are now autocephalous.
I am not familiar with all these terms autocephalous, etc.

Perhaps someone more in tune with these terms can explain all this intrigue.

The Church of Greece under Archbishop Makarios of Athens and the Church in North America under Metropolitan Gregory of Boston are two autocephalous sister Churches in full communion with one another. The two sister synods of bishops genuinely communicate and get along with each other and respect each other and respect each other's independence. Autocephalous means "self-headed" which means the local synod elects a first-hierarch without outside involvement. ...