Three Greek priests join the RTOC Synod - June 2015

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Maria
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Re: Three Greek priests join the RTOC Synod - June 2015

Post by Maria »

I am not a theologian. Yes, I did study theology in college, but theology in Orthodoxy is not book knowledge, but mystical knowledge imparted through the Divine Energies of God when a human being lives a life of purity and unceasing prayer. We all have a long way to go to reach that point.

Since Christ God showers His Grace generously on all who accept Him, we in the GOC are not to think in terms of "off" and "on" or "black" and "white." Remember the disciples of Christ became upset that a group of people were preaching in Christ's name and working miracles? Christ told them that he who is not against Me is for Me, but He also cautioned, "by their fruits you shall know them."

Then look at St. John of San Francisco. He lived in a very difficult time, so he did make some mistakes, like joining the MP when he was in China as he did not have good sources of information, but as soon as he learned the truth, he made the necessary corrections and joined ROCOR. Some people criticize him for not joining the GOC, but in the '50s and early '60s there were conflicting reports on the situation in Greece. Remember that Auxentios and others had early on convinced HTM and ROCOR that St. Matthew was wrong to do the single-handed consecration. There were lots of misrepresentations then and there are even more rumors and lies being posted today on blogs as laity have access to technology that they did not have in the 50s and 60s.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Theophanes
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Re: Three Greek priests join the RTOC Synod - June 2015

Post by Theophanes »

"Yes, I agree. So, GOC-K and ROCA as well as the RTOC are all Cyprianites.[/quote]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regarding the above quote, if this is so, it seems rather paradoxical that (as someone mentioned earlier on the thread re: Fr. Steven Allen) the SiR has "sufficiently repented" of the Cyprianism that GOC-K, ROCA and RTOC have held and now hold to?? If this (Cyprianism) were a disease, it appears that it is highly contagious... but the carrier (SiR) has been 'cured', and yet remains in danger through its proximity/union with the GOC-K?? Am I missing something??

Theophan

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Maria
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Re: Three Greek priests join the RTOC Synod - June 2015

Post by Maria »

Theophanes wrote:
Maria wrote:

Yes, I agree. So, GOC-K and ROCA as well as the RTOC are all Cyprianites.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regarding the above quote, if this is so, it seems rather paradoxical that (as someone mentioned earlier on the thread re: Fr. Steven Allen) the SiR has "sufficiently repented" of the Cyprianism that GOC-K, ROCA and RTOC have held and now hold to?? If this (Cyprianism) were a disease, it appears that it is highly contagious... but the carrier (SiR) has been 'cured', and yet remains in danger through its proximity/union with the GOC-K?? Am I missing something??

Theophan

Dear Theophan,

Welcome to this forum! Perhaps your question will be answered by reading this thread. That deals with Cyprianism.

If you go to that link, Deacon Ephraim makes this statement:

  • Forgive me, Mr. Moss, but I'm not sure that I ever said that "the Cyprianites have repented of their Cyprianism." Perhaps you are referring to my statement that Fr. Steven Allen "believes that the former SiR groups have sufficiently repented of Cyprianism." This, as far as I know, does reflect Fr. Steven's view. I don't necessarily agree with that view, however. I tend toward your own public view that the Cyprianites to this day have not made a sufficient public statement of repentance.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Theophanes
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Re: Three Greek priests join the RTOC Synod - June 2015

Post by Theophanes »

Thank you, Maria! I appreciate the clarification. I have been able, despite myself, to understand over time that Cyprianism, as an accomodation and a call to inaction, is dangerously useless and therefore to be rejected. Such a belief/theory doesn't seem to take into account the reality 'on the ground', that is, that while waiting for someone to show up with a shotgun (a Synod or Council), the wolf is allowed to blithely continue feasting on the flock, one-by-one. Is even one sheep expendable? (Luke 15:4) Or using a medical analogy to describe the Cyprianist outworking, it is tantamount to a physician getting the test results back indicating a malignancy, but the poor, distressed patient seeks relief in getting 2nd, 3rd, 4th.. opinions, and ends up dying in the process. This, again, is the "reality on the ground" (read: in the Nave and in the middle of the sleepless night). This is 'ecclesiology' at a distance (read: 'removed'), and I would humbly submit, it is an ecclesiology that seems lacking in pastoral empathy and the ability to act decisively. This 'procrastination' clearly works in the wolf's favor. And if the 'procrastination' has accommodated the capitulation to the MP in ROCOR and the ambivalence in the GOC-K/SiR union and has given ammunition to the ever-pontificating, new-calendarist zealots... then little else needs to be said. Personally, I am not able go where the SiR has been or where it is presently, because even as a stupid layman, I should know better. It's just a simple matter of 'forensics'.

With regard to another undercurrent in this thread, I don't think it is useful to inject veiled metaphors ('crude' or otherwise) referencing keh-gee-bee-style defamations of character such that the original slander/libel is repeated in some people's minds. I am referring to the "metropolitan / sexual abuse of children" metaphor that was unfortunately injected. IMHO, this can only prepare the soil for more seeds of "distancing" to be planted. I appreciate the energetic discussion though, and hope to learn much for both my own and others' sakes.

Theophan

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Maria
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Re: Three Greek priests join the RTOC Synod - June 2015

Post by Maria »

Theophanes wrote:

With regard to another undercurrent in this thread, I don't think it is useful to inject veiled metaphors ('crude' or otherwise) referencing keh-gee-bee-style defamations of character such that the original slander/libel is repeated in some people's minds. I am referring to the "metropolitan / sexual abuse of children" metaphor that was unfortunately injected. IMHO, this can only prepare the soil for more seeds of "distancing" to be planted. I appreciate the energetic discussion though, and hope to learn much for both my own and others' sakes.

Theophan

Dear Theophan,

Again welcome to E Cafe.

Per the rules, at E Cafe, members are not to commit ad hominems or engage in gossip. If this
is occurring, then please report that post, even if it happens to be mine. Sometimes when
members here are in the thick of an argument, they may not be aware that they are breaking the
rules. Accusing someone of being a KGB agent or a Freemason are serious charges without proof.
Nevertheless, we can point to their sermons and writings and address their duplicity and errors.

When conducting an ecclesiastical court, evidence must be presented, but the laity generally are
not trained nor do they have the expertise to bring someone to court and try them.

However, during the Arian heresy, it was the laity and especially the monastics who recognized
that something was wrong as 80 to 90 percent of the bishops had capitulated. It was the hieromonks,
laity and the monastics who kept the faith alive, and who urged the bishops to repent.

In 1924, both people, monastics, and "Mass" priests, who did not have a blessing to serve
the Holy Mysteries, realized that something was diabolically wrong when the EP and certain
Greek Bishops suddenly forced the New Calendar upon them. Nevertheless, God had raised up
saints such as St. Nektarios and other holy Elders who wrote and delivered sermons warning
the faithful people about the dangers of modernistic innovations with their mandate for priests
to stop wearing facial hair and the frock, and with the push for this Papal New Calendar with
its shortening and or elimination of the Apostles' Fast. Note that the modernists in Rome had
previously eliminated the rigidity of the Nativity Fast at Vatican I in 1870, so the modernists in
Constantinople were trying to eliminate the strictness of the Nativity fast too. With the imposition
of the New Calendar, priests, monastics, and laity were imprisoned and tortured for observing
Vespers, feast days and saint's days according to the Old Calendar.

And this was the intent all along as Western educated modernists in the clergy were saying
that Orthodox Christians had to enter the New World, and that clergy had to stop wearing facial
hair and replace their frock with a business suit and Roman collar. Therefore, when humble
"Mass" priests and monks were imprisoned, they were stripped of their frocks and their facial
hair was pulled from the roots, often leaving them to bleed to death or die from infections as
no medical care was rendered in these filthy prisons. This showed the diabolical insanity and
hatred for the Saints.

Even though these True Orthodox did not have the authority to call an Ecumenical Council to
deal with the problem, they had their Holy Tradition, the writings of the saints, and certain
rulings by local synods of the Church that had previously condemned the Papal New Calendar
innovations. These faithful instinctively knew that the New Calendar imposition had created a
schism and they could not be a part of this schism. New Calendarists had compromised the truth.

During this time, St. Matthew the New Confessor kept the Holy Faith and Holy Traditions alive
between 1924 to 1935 when there were no True Orthodox Bishops. It was he who encouraged
the laity to remain faithful and to persevere during these very dark times when all the bishops
and most of the priests and their people had fallen under the New Calendar deception of the
Freemasons, like Meletios Metakaxis who had taken control of our Church, and who were brutally
trying to suppress the True Faith.

St. Matthew covered a lot of territory as a humble preacher and confessor to bring the sacraments
to the villages and cities and islands of Greece, just as the monastics did during the Ottoman Empire.
The faithful and "Mass" priests, who did not have a blessing to serve the Holy Mysteries, would
prepare for these infrequent events by prayer and fasting prior to making their confession and
receiving Holy Communion. "Mass" priests were ordained solely to serve the Divine Liturgy, but
they were the only ones who could receive Holy Communion as they did not have permission to
hear confessions. As during the Ottoman Empire, yiayias and "Mass" priests kept the faith alive
by instructing the children in the Holy Faith and in Her Holy Traditions.

As during the Arian heresy, it was the faithful, the monastics, and hieromonks like St. Matthew
who kept the faith alive, and who were able to encourage three bishops to leave World Orthodoxy
and to establish a True Orthodox Synod of Bishops.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Theophanes
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Re: Three Greek priests join the RTOC Synod - June 2015

Post by Theophanes »

Dear Maria,

I was writing about what I saw as a possible ad hominem (based on an actual historical situation that it brought to mind, where a well known and respected TO Metropolitan had been accused of child abuse). In that instance, public defamation / character assassination (a Modus Operandi of elements like the kgb/fsb) seemed to be in play. I believe this is generally understood. I am sorry if you or another mistook what I said as an accusation of someone being kgb or freemason?! That perception has no basis in fact, however. I was only referencing that to accentuate the seriousness of what appeared to be an 'unfortunate' metaphor that brought to mind a horrible slander against a reposed Russian Orthodox Metropolitan. I saw this as counterproductive, and so wrote what I did.

So, please, to whoever has taken offense, forgive me, a sinner. Clearly, I will need to be far more careful in word choices, should I post again here. When I fail, I hope that charity on the part of the reader will attempt to put the best construction on what is said... believing that what is said is in no way meant to give offense or to mislead. So, again, a lesson learned. And again, forgive me.

I sincerely have no idea what the rest of what you wrote means in this particular context, or why it was offered. But thank you anyway.

Theophan

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Maria
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Re: Three Greek priests join the RTOC Synod - June 2015

Post by Maria »

Theophanes wrote:

Dear Maria,

I was writing about what I saw as a possible ad hominem (based on an actual historical situation that it brought to mind, where a well known and respected TO Metropolitan had been accused of child abuse). In that instance, public defamation / character assassination (a Modus Operandi of elements like the kgb/fsb) seemed to be in play. I believe this is generally understood. I am sorry if you or another mistook what I said as an accusation of someone being kgb or freemason?! That perception has no basis in fact, however. I was only referencing that to accentuate the seriousness of what appeared to be an 'unfortunate' metaphor that brought to mind a horrible slander against a reposed Russian Orthodox Metropolitan. I saw this as counterproductive, and so wrote what I did.

So, please, to whoever has taken offense, forgive me, a sinner. Clearly, I will need to be far more careful in word choices, should I post again here. When I fail, I hope that charity on the part of the reader will attempt to put the best construction on what is said... believing that what is said is in no way meant to give offense or to mislead. So, again, a lesson learned. And again, forgive me.

I sincerely have no idea what the rest of what you wrote means in this particular context, or why it was offered. But thank you anyway.

Theophan

Sorry if my verbosity got the best of me. We have been having triple digit weather in this drought, so my brain is fried. And now we are having very high humidity due to Hurricane Linda.

Please do not leave. What you have posted is good.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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