Ecumenism, Modernism, Etc. "Black and White" Issue

DIscussion and News concerning Orthodox Churches in communion with those who have fallen into the heresies of Ecumenism, Renovationism, Sergianism, and Modernism, or those Traditional Orthodox Churches who are now involved with Name-Worshiping, or vagante jurisdictions. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

seraphim

Forgive me for saying this, but this reminds me of what Anglicans say all the time (they have the best of all worlds.) The only problem is, some of those "worlds" are undesirable.

I would agree.

I think what has changed most in recent times, is that the divisions are increasingly becoming lived, ontological realities, and not simply theoretical, written disputes. I'm not saying they were totally that in the past (theoretical), but as time goes on, the drift of "world Orthodoxy" is going on, and they are going further and further away from Orthodoxy.

Again, I agree with you. Perhaps at one point, very early on, few experienced the actual changes. Then the Calendar issue hit. For a while that was the major struggle. Eventually a whole doctrine got built up to support pitching out "useless customs" or "outdated little-t traditions". Ironically, I don't really see that stuff in the people most of world Orthodoxy point to as having discussed what they are teaching (e.g., I've read Lossky's essay Tradition and traditions, and to be quite honest I don't see the same type of distinction that many make today). Unfortunately, it seems to be going more and more downhill, and there aren't just a few errors, but every jurisdiction seems to have their own unique batch of errors.

And, more or less everywhere, those who are more or less your religious/ideological compatriots, are persecuted by the "churches" you seem to be holding out for. It shouldn't be forgotten that there are already martyrs for this cause - and their slayers were new calendarists.

Well, I would disagree with that. I don't believe at this point that I am supporting any bishop that persecutes or mocks old calendarists, traditionalists, etc. For me, it's not an issue of holding out for churches, but of supporting the good bishops within particular churches (within the Serb Church, to be specific) so that their entire Church can return to right belief and right action. When there have been mockings or persecution, I've always tried to speak out against it, not support it or let it go by without a word because "they're in this or that Church, which I have hope for". I certainly wouldn't (and don't) support bishops, or churches, that are ok with martyring traditionalists.

It is perhaps easy for us here to hold out like this...but what about those traditionalists who have actually had to endure the oppression of "world Orthodoxy"?

Ahh... but we have temptations to. Maybe our temptations are not so hard on the body, but they are nonetheless trying on the soul. Traditionalists anywhere can always be tempted to fall into sectarianism (and I'm not saying anyone on this board has) or false brotherly love. I thank God that I did not live in a time when other types of persecution went on--God truly loves us and gives us what is best for our salvation, because I know I would not have been able to hold out under torture. However, even in the west there are dangers. We are not without our Neros and Diocletians.

OOD

Quote: ...over-zealous "right wing" Churches...

To me, that description fits very few "Old Calendarist" Churches, most of the splits are for personal reasons portrayed by schismatics as theological reasons; in other words, a pretend zeal. Like many others, these schismatics take advantage of proportions and size to forward their ambitions. Before you make such classifications in your mind, I feel you should become acquainted with the Church first.

Well, I didn't mean to totally paint my own thinking as such, though I'm sure I do think that way to some extent. Apparently, I fool myself into thinking that I don't (or didn't) think certain ways, when in actuality I do (or did). :-| Still working on that. I am also working on getting to know better the various traditionalist Churches (such as yours--keep us updated about the site :) ).

Justin

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