On Headcoverings and Modesty of Women in Church

[Natasha]

That is something based on a few individual observations, which is judgemental and arrogant.
If there never were any cradles who devoted much of their lives to Orthodoxy in America, there would not be half as many churches here to make these observations in during Liturgy.

[尼古拉前执事]

Maybe we should clarify to say that in America, MANY converts are more so than MANY cradles. There are some cradles that are far more pious than MANY cradles and converts who are far less observant of praxis than MANY cradles. I had a Cradle Orthodox priest tell me once that while MANY converts get the whole Orthodox praxis and head knowledge down pat than MANY cradles, MANY cradles often have the natural inborn Orthodox spirituality that MANY converts miss out on.

[Natasha]

also, if you don't feel that there are that many pious girls left in Greece, why did you delete that old post of yours defending your view?

[nikolaoc]

I find that worrying about the spirtuality of others is counterproductive to my own development. It matters not what the cradle or the converts do. It does matter what you do under the guidence of your own spiritual Father.

All are somewhere between damnation and Theosis, and we can only pray its closer to the latter.

[Justin Kissel]

For the same reason I edited the above post even though I know you are overreacting and misunderstanding me. Because I'm not going to argue with you since I don't think I'll change your mind.

Justin

PS. As you may have noticed, I edit my posts a lot. I think you've noticed a few that I posted that would have been offensive or wouldn't have gotten the discussion anywhere, and so I took them down. I don't edit/delete stuff to "cover my tracks" or "because I'm wrong" though. I've never done that, though I did get involved in an accusation that I did that once on a Protestant message board, so I'm very careful to never delete posts or edit them because of my own personal interests. I don't say that I always succeed, but I'm careful. If I post something and then a few moments later come to think that it will only cause harm, then I go and change it. I don't change things when I'm wrong just so I don't look foolish, however. I looked foolish in quoting on Bishop Luke in the other thread recently, for instance. But I posted that I regreted having quoted the book, I didn't edit/delete the posts into oblivion.

[Miriam]

I am not refering to headgear or to the yarmulke -- a relatively modern innovation anyway -- what I was refering to was the talit or prayer shawl with the attached strings or fringes. See the following for the refernces to it: Num. 15:37-41, Lev. 19:19; Deut. 22:11

It is/was an ancient practice for Jews to cover their heads during prayer. This probably derived from the fact that in Eastern cultures, it is a sign of respect to cover the head. Thus, by covering the head during prayer, one showed respect for God. In addition, in ancient Rome, servants were required to cover their heads while free men did not; thus, Jews covered their heads to show that they were servants of God. In medieval times, Jews covered their heads as a reminder that God is always above them.

Christ was known to have worn one.

It is intereting to note that the custom in Western cultures is the opposite: it is a sign of respect to remove one's hat or to uncover the head.

It is believed that the talit evolved into the stoles..I don't know the proper English word...that priests wear during services.

[Alpha Omega]

My wife just kicks me about this stuff. To her, the "platok" or scarf is a symbol of power. When I first met her, I was completely opposed to women wearing scarves in Church. I thought it was an archaic, and completely degrading practice.

How wrong I was. As a grown and married man, I now realise something that I had no comprehension of before - that the wearing of head coverings in Church allows women to achieve something men could never achieve - objectivity. The more "plain" a woman makes herself in Church, the more she eliminates the desire of other people to judge her and her appearance whilst she (and they) pray.

Let's face it - we men are rarely the object of visual adoration - but women - yes, you definitely are the object of both visual adoration (by men) and visual jealousy ( by other women). But what good is it for a man standing in Church to be distracted by the beauty of a woman standing near him? Don't get me wrong, it's not your fault as a woman that you are beautiful - but we men are programmed to look at atttractive women. That's fine - outside of Church - but within the communal prayer environment can it be considered appropriate? I've realise that it's not appropriate. Why? Because we don't get together in Church to ogle each other... we get together there to pray for the salvation of our souls - which is the most important thing we can do. So let's all accept the fact that we need to make ourselves as non-confrontational as possible in Church, both in our appearance and our manner. That way, we preserve our prayer lives, and the prayer lives of our fellow Orthodox parishioners.
If that means that one gender should cover up, just for those 3hours in Church, well is that too much to ask?

ao