What language should the Divine Services be held using?

Discuss the holy Mysteries and the liturgical life of the Church such as the Hours, Vespers, Matins/Orthros, Typica, and the Divine Liturgy. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.

What language should the Divine Services be held using?

A traditional language like Church Slavonic or Kione

2
13%

The language of the land (i.e. English in USA, Spanish in Argentina, etc.)

13
87%
 
Total votes: 15

Subdeacon Joseph
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Post by Subdeacon Joseph »

A question to ask ourselves, "Is it more important to be Russian (Greek, Slovakian, etc..) or Orthodox?" "Should I teach others to be Russian, or to bring them to God through the Orthodox Church?"

I think there is a VERY important place for our nationality/tradition, but becareful that it does NOT take away or become more important than the word of the True Church. If I invite a heterodox to witness our Liturgy, I would want him to see, hear(understand), feel and smell the entire beauty of our services.

Once again, my humble opinion,
sdc joseph

Daniel
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Posts: 443
Joined: Thu 10 July 2003 9:00 pm

English or Bust!

Post by Daniel »

Please forgive my boldness, but...Using a ‘Liturgical’ language is ridiculous! There is no sound reason to keep a language that few understand and other wise would be considered dead.

Some of the comments regarding Saints Cyril and Methodius didn’t seem quite right. I have only a limited knowledge of linguistics though I do have a friend who is a Russian linguist so I emailed him for his thoughts on this topic.

These are the questions I asked:
What do you know about Sts. Cyril and Methodius' translation work?
Was the Slavonic they translated the Greek into an amalgam of local dialects or just the dialect they grew up with?
Was not 'Church Slavonic' a common, everyday language during Cyril and Methodius’ time?

And his response (emphasis added):

Some of this is a matter of speculation, since other than their
translations we have no real record of the Slavic dialects of the time.
But we know that they would not have had any knowledge of the Eastern
dialect
(what became Russian and Ukranian) since they spoke the Southern
dialect and did their work in Moravia (Western dialect). Though it may
have been designed to accommodate these two dialects, it was certainly
not a "liturgical" language in the sense we think of
, since a liturgical
language is really just a polite way of saying obsolete, since there
were no literary precedents in proto- or pan-Slavic. However, by modern
translation theory standards, their translation was anything but good
--
it is a word-for-word translation of the Greek, even incorporating some
grammatical features of Greek that never existed in Slavic languages,
like postpositive words. Plus, there were lots of words, names, and
concepts that had to be calqued directly from the Greek, so I doubt that
it would not have seemed like nonsense to the non-catechized... But
Slavonic changed a lot on its own, and even a priest would find the real
Old Slavonic impossible to read (I have been told by a Jordanville grad that Church Slavonic has been updated twice since the time of Cyril and Methodius). No doubt it was based on a common
language, but it was definitely something 'other', because of its strong
dependency on Greek and Christian concepts.

Translation is never exact. To paraphrase linguist John McWorter (I believe); All there is is dialects. So to make excuses to keep such and such language because of the potential for getting a slightly off, or various translations is just non-since. Or to make the excuse of maintaining a living link back to the language of the Gospels doesn’t really pan out either. No one uses New Testament Greek or Church Slavonic as an everyday language, as they once did. So in a way that link is already broken. Instead why not let the Holy Spirit be that living link, maintaining a faithfulness to the original no matter how far removed from the original a particular translation may be.

Now I will try to demonstrate why services must be done in a commonly understood language. Here are some verses from Matins this past weekend.

Canon to Apostle Peter (for the feast day of his chains) Ode 6

Most wondrously didst thou endure crucifixion upside-down, for thus didst thou prepare thy feet for the path to heaven. Do thou strengthen us also to walk it, O disciple of Christ.

WOW! What imagery! If I hadn’t been in the choir loft and someone printed this I would have never known that this poetic verse existed.

Here are some more from The Resurrectional Canon Ode 9

O all ye of alien mind, who assume that the Divinity suffered, stop your mouths; for we magnify the Lord of glory crucified in the flesh, but not crucified in His divine essence, for His in One in two natures

Worshiping a Trinity of Hypostasis, not of Godheads, a Oneness of divinity, not of Persons, we cut off those who divide It; moreover, we confound those who dare to confuse that which we magnify.

Beholding in Christ sufferings of the flesh and the might of divinity, let those who reason that He is a single, commingled Being be put to shame; for as man He dieth, but as the Creator of all He riseth again.

What pure theology! Like I have said before, ALL of the Church’s teachings can be found in Her prayers, but if you do not understand the prayers you will not learn them all. This, more than any other, is why the services must be (and have always been) translated sung in the native language of what ever land the Church finds herself in.

I’m sure by now I seem pretty harsh regarding the issue of language, this has been an off and on sore spot for me. So, if I have upset anyone I sincerely apologize.

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