Answer Regarding Homosexuality

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[Etienne]

Forgive me, but reading through this thread I wonder if there is not both confusion and a trap in some of what has been written here.

The calling to be a Christian, literally a follower of the God-man, Jesus Christ, is something very different from that of following the values and mores of this (largely secular) world.

To follow the narrow pathway is exceedingly difficult for all. Christian teaching is explicit. All sexual activity may only take place between two people - one man and one woman, with the bounds of Holy Matrimony. We are not required to judge others, but must uphold the Christian faith.

Among a voraciferous and articulate minority there is a determination to gain acceptance for what are sometimes called, 'alternate lifestyles'.
Any institution or structure which opposes this 'goal' is targetted. Such an aggressive pattern, which seeks to set aside Christian teaching, will arouse opposition. Sadly some of this is intemperate, and some reflects the personal 'distaste' of individuals.

Here in Britain and Ireland many advocate the acceptance of lesbian, homosexual, bisexual and transsexual lifestyles as equal and valid 'lifestyles'. This extends to opposition to anything seeming to give marriage any greater standing than other 'lifestyles' choices. The word 'family' is eschewed. The 'word' is families come in many shapes and sizes, etc. Their cause here is supported by many leading pulblic figures, including the church going Tony and Cherie Blair.

The Orthodox Church's teaching on this subject, as it is teaching on fornication and adultery, is very clear. Many of us will find adhering to that teaching difficult and more. The tendency of many who would like to regard themselves as Christian today, when facing anything difficult, is to simply move the goal posts.

If you are drawn to others of your own sex, I will not judge you. If you act on it, please do not expect me or others to uphold that behaviour as something compatible with Christianity. We cannot pick and mix, being a Christian is not a 'life-style' choice.

[Ben Jamin]

Ben You are wrong,

Wouldn't be the first time!

you're basically saying God created homosexUALITY,

Nothing exsists without God. God allows all to occur, and nothing happens without the consent of God, except sin. And since I believe homosexuality to be a cross to bare and an extremley difficult struggle, I do not believe it is a sin. Something you didn't ask for, something you try to fight with your entire being can not darn you!

1 Cor ch.6v9 The Apostle Pavlos CLEARLY states that homosexUALS not "homosexuality" WILL NOT inherit the kindom of heaven

I belive Paul was refering to those homosexuals who engage in homosexual acts. Many believe that if you're a homosexual you're gunna have sex with members of the same sex, and these are the homosexuals that Paul was condemning, not those who try to live holy lives in Chirst.

"there are people who practice homosexual behavior and try and live a so called holy life",

I never said that. I said there are many homosexuals who try to live holy lives in Chirst. If you took the word "homosexual" to mean those practicing homosexual behavior, then that is your problem. I believe that whether you practice homosexual behavior or not, if you are sexually attracted to members of the same sex, and not the opposite sex, you are a homosexual.

their PRACTICING HOMOSEXUALS, people who practice homosexuality are called "HOMOSEXUALLS",

Yep, so are those who do not pratice homosexual behavior. A homosexual is not just a person who has sex with members of the same sex. If a heterosexual has sex with a member of the same sex, it doesn't make them a homosexual! Homosexuality is much more complex, and the word "homosexual" applies to those who are sexually attracted to members of the same sex, and not those of the opposite sex.

so God wouldn't give them grace in thier spirituality,

And since when did you decide who God gives grace to, and who he doesnt?! God's mercy and love transcends all barriers. His grace is everywhere, I will not limit it to heterosexuals, for to do such a thing is to limit the glory and the power of God to your narrow thinking.

From reading your post it is obvious that your grossly misunderstood me. I never said that there is nothing wrong with a homosexual practicing homosexual behavior, and at the same time trying to be a good Christian. I am talking about those who are not practicing homosexuals, and are trying to fight their temptations and advance towards God's plan for them in this world.

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My friend I TRULY BELIEVE you do not understand WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, you have spoken BLASPHEMY by saying "it is in you" you're stating (unknowingly) that God created it, you also do not understand the CLEAR difference between God "allowing" something to happen from God {"creating" something the Fathers of the Church have written about these two DIFFERENT things.One of the basic teachings of Orthodox Christianity is that an Orthodox Christian is ABSOLUTLY not supposed to put his opinon before the Church's teaching especialy when it comes to Virtue and Vice. I remember in one of the toll houses there is a toll house our soul has to pass I think it's the 19th one where we have to give an account why we PERSONALL "beleved" in some thing that the Church has spoken against, Let me explaine the differnce between temptations, and commiting a sin 1.A heterall sexual who is having thoughts bombard him of homosexual deeds is just one being "tempted" 2. A heteral sexual who thinks about homosexual acts but does'nt physically act on them is a "heteral sexuall conversing with unnatural thoughts" the Church Fathers have defined this as a SIN!!! 3. A former homosexual having homosexual thoughts bombard him is just one tring to live a "holy life" and he is just being "tempted"4. A former homosexual who doesn't physically do homosexual deeds but he has homosexual thoughts passing threw his head and he looks at the images or listenes to the sugestions in his head is called one conversing with the thoughts he is a" homosexual" and the Church fathers have defined this as a SIN!!! and how do I know that a practicing homosexual doesn't get grace? because I've spent Three Years Eight months at a Monastery and have learned a lot about things like 1.thoughts 2.temptations 3.conversing with thoughts 4.Purification 5.Illumination, 6.Deification (Theosis) 7.Ecumenisim and all types of other good things is what I've learned, that how I know these things.

[TomS]

...because I've spent Three Years Eight months at a Monastery and have learned a lot about things like 1.thoughts 2.temptations 3.conversing with thoughts 4.Purification 5.Illumination, 6.Deification (Theosis) 7.Ecumenisim and all types of other good things is what I've learned, that how I know these things.

Are you still there?

I think you are right BTW -- because in the Philokalia there are many paragraphs about monks fighting sexual temptations. Besides pride, It seems to be the most powerful temptation for Satan to use.

[Ben Jamin]

I TRULY BELIEVE you do not understand WHAT YOU ARE SAYING

And of course we all know that its is your God given gift to read other's minds over the net, and judge their thoughts.

You don't even know me and you assume you know what I am saying and what I am not?!

you have spoken BLASPHEMY by saying "it is in you"

I do not believe this is blasphemy. Do you know any homosexuals? Are you a homosexual? If you answered no to both of those questions, then you, personally, have absolutely no idea if homosexuality "is in you" or if it isn't. Homosexuality is just as much of a sexual orientation as heterosexuality, whether homosexuals are born that way or not, we do not know, it does not matter, for they are what they are and can not change this, with the excepton of a miracle from God. If homosexuality is nothing but a temptation attacking the person from the out side, then what are homosexuals? They are not heterosexuals, so what are they? Do they have no sexual orientation? Or are they just really heterosexuals in denial?

you're stating (unknowingly) that God created it

I do not know if God created it or just allows it. But I have known many homosexuals who have used their homosexuality for good and not bad. They have seen it as a cross to bare, and live holy and chaste lives and have entered into a wonderful and deep relationship with God. Perhaps, God has created homosexuality for certain individuals, for their own good. God cares for all and knows all. I would not be surprised if homosexuality was used as a tool of slavation by God.

I remember in one of the toll houses there is a toll house our soul has to pass I think it's the 19th one where we have to give an account why we PERSONALL "beleved" in some thing that the Church has spoken against

And you do know that the "Toll House" theory is not official Orthodox teaching, and is a matter of opinion. You can embrace the theory, reject it, or just not care, from my understanding, for it is not a dogma of the Church.

A heterall sexual

What is a "heterall sexual" ?

2. A heteral sexual who thinks about homosexual acts but does'nt physically act on them is a "heteral sexuall conversing with unnatural thoughts" the Church Fathers have defined this as a SIN!!!

Of course it is a sin! Indulging in impure and lustful thoughts is a serious sin, that must always be avoided! I never denied that is was sin to indulge in such thoughts!

A former homosexual

How would you define a "former homosexual"? Do you mean a homosexual who no longer engages in homosexual acts and is living in repentence in the grace of God? Or do you mean a homosexual changed, by God, into a heterosexual?

A former homosexual who doesn't physically do homosexual deeds but he has homosexual thoughts passing threw his head and he looks at the images or listenes to the sugestions in his head is called one conversing with the thoughts he is a" homosexual" and the Church fathers have defined this as a SIN!!!

Of course it is a sin!!! Where did I ever deny this! Seriously, you need to read through my posts. Homosexual acts and thoughts, are sinful, period. But homosexuals, who are living chaste lives in Jesus Christ, are not going to be damned because they are homosexuals. They aren't evil just because they are homosexuals! I do not believe in a God who will condemn someone who tried their best to live holy and chaste lives, because they were homosexuals.

and how do I know that a practicing homosexual doesn't get grace?

I guess this depends on how you define grace.

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I can tell already you've converted from some other religion to Orthodoxy because you sound like a convert who's read some Orthodox books here and there but who comes into Orthodoxy with alot of gentile(nonOrthodox) ideas. 1.About the Toll houses read "Eternal Mysteries Beyond the Grave" there you'll see all the writtings of the "Fathers of the Church" on the "TOLL HOUSES" .Heterosexuality is natural and it's put in us by God so we can reproduce, homosexuality the fathers of the Church have defined as "UNATURAL" and a sin. One of your problems is you have to learn that you (Ben) can not belive in what you personaly want to and not want to, this is called "doing your own will" and I'm sure you know thats a sin, if the Church says homosexuality not just the physical deed but homosexuality, is a sin you have to accept it as a sin, I can only sugest that you can go to a monastery and talk to some enlightend Elders there still a few aroung, even here in the U.S. or a good Bishop-Preist and ask them if God created it, where does it come from? you've said "perhaps God created it" I can tell you HE DIDN'T and my witnesses is Church Fathers and there teachings on homosexuality there is a very long and detailed book on the Church fathers teachings on homosexuality, the definition of a former homosexual is a person who no longer ingages in homosexual acts AND/OR a person who was atracted to a male and later on by the grace of God is no longer attracted to males.