Christodoulos vs Bartholomew

DIscussion and News concerning Orthodox Churches in communion with those who have fallen into the heresies of Ecumenism, Renovationism, Sergianism, and Modernism, or those Traditional Orthodox Churches who are now involved with Name-Worshiping, or vagante jurisdictions. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


Makis
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Post by Makis »

Dear Dimitri,

Ofcause I cannot look in the soul of Abp. Christodoulos (not that I want to, I have enough troubles with my own), but as far as I know, and I have some inside info, there are no plans of becoming the successor of the EP.

The northern sees, where most of my relatives live, if lost to the EP, will spell its doom - Greek state support aside

sorry, but I miss your point (must be the time of night, in 45' I will finally go home).

Well if the support looks suspect, I'm sorry, but I can't help that.
Just for your info, this support is a long standing "tradition" for every governement here, either PASOK (socialists) or ND (liberals), so no Church partisanship (PASOK is not known for it's whole-hearted support of the Church, to put it in a subtle way).

So, sorry, you need to adjust your perspective and stop reading the Athens dailies only

Don't worry, I hardly read any Greek newspapers, since my Greek is not good enough to get the fine points, and furthermore, the are to politically coloured for my taste.

I don't see the EP striving for unity with Rome, just playing silly word games so each of those hierarchs can 'say' their doing something

Let's just say you and I see it differently, but I suggest we agree to disagree on this (and perhaps other) point.

In Christ,

Makis

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Aristokles
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Post by Aristokles »

makis, my friend, I would rather not 'agree to disagree', but just talk this out. I am capable of learning.

makis wrote:

Dear Dimitri,

Ofcause I cannot look in the soul of Abp. Christodoulos (not that I want to, I have enough troubles with my own), but as far as I know, and I have some inside info, there are no plans of becoming the successor of the EP.

Rumors vary.

The northern sees, where most of my relatives live, if lost to the EP, will spell its doom - Greek state support aside

sorry, but I miss your point (must be the time of night, in 45' I will finally go home).

My point is simple.
1) The EP counts 3.5 million souls. 1500 in Istanbul, 1.5 million in Greece {1 million in disputes sees, .5 million in Archdiocses of Crete, 2 million (440,000 paying families) in America, and some small other diaspora).
2)If the EP completely looses the northern territories, the Patriachate goes vitually extinct - the US sees are now in court under charter challenge and eventually the GOAA here must go under the canonical Russians here once THEY decide who that is. This leaves the EP with nothing nearly and the COG with all of the original see of Constantinople outside of Turkey. Ever heard of the term "phyletism"?

Well if the support looks suspect, I'm sorry, but I can't help that.
Just for your info, this support is a long standing "tradition" for every governement here, either PASOK (socialists) or ND (liberals), so no Church partisanship (PASOK is not known for it's whole-hearted support of the Church, to put it in a subtle way).

From your description I see that Hellas has reconstituted Justinian's model where the state taxes the citizens to support the Church, The Church provides the social welfare services to the citizens in return. Works, too - when the state is Christian. Secular Greece governements will ruin this. Indeed, as you describe, tax support to all the old Byzantine sees is subject to political whim now -including support for the EP (as I meant to define 'support').
By the way, over here we've been told the PASOK (despite being socialist) leans to support the EP while ND is ambivalent to both churches (see my paragraph above.)

Don't worry, I hardly read any Greek newspapers, since my Greek is not good enough to get the fine points, and furthermore, the are to politically coloured for my taste.

I can agree here to a very large extent- translations are even suspect given all the nuances of Greek syntax.

Demetri

Makis
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Post by Makis »

Dear Dimitri,

Okidoki, let's continue the talk. :mrgreen:

Rumors vary

That's the annoying thing with rumors. You never know for sure which is true, and to what extend.
However, as you can understand, in this case I stick to the ones I heared, untill I hear or see proof of any tendencies in the direction you mentioned.

My point is simple.
1) The EP counts 3.5 million souls. 1500 in Istanbul, 1.5 million in Greece {1 million in disputes sees, .5 million in Archdiocses of Crete, 2 million (440,000 paying families) in America, and some small other diaspora).
2)If the EP completely looses the northern territories, the Patriachate goes vitually extinct - the US sees are now in court under charter challenge and eventually the GOAA here must go under the canonical Russians here once THEY decide who that is. This leaves the EP with nothing nearly and the COG with all of the original see of Constantinople outside of Turkey. Ever heard of the term "phyletism"?

Got your point.
It is really a pity for the EP that it has "lost" (in a sense) the dioceses of the US and (you didn't mention it) Australia (Metr. Stylianos is not what one can call deeply in love with the EP).
Perhaps the Patriarchate has also itself to blame for this situation?
I know of at least one Metropolitan of the throne whose love for the Patriarchate is, if not completely gone, than at least on a much lower level than before.
Why?
Because the Patriarchate (at least so it seems) is not so much interested in what's going on outside it's own cannonical territory (present-day Turkey), as long as the money keeps flowing.
This is ofcause no excuse whatsoever for the current actions of OCL (lemme guess, successors of GOAL/VOITHIA?) in the US who seem to have their minds set on destructing the GOA.

Now, let's look again closely at the situation in Greece.
What is happening? For many decades, the Hierarchs of the disputed sees (best term for them, I really don't like "new lands") were elected by the Synod in Athens, NOT the one in Const/poli.
The EP has all these years accepted that situation.
Now, the newly elected Hierarchs of these disputed sees are again elected by the Synod in Athens, will be members of the Synod in Athens, but they will, instead of HB Archbishop Christodoulos, commemorate HAH the Ecumenical Patriarch.
I immediately agree with you that this is not the most correct situation, I will even agree with you that this is actually an incorrect situation.
But, given the circumstances, this is the best option.

...and eventually the GOAA here must go under the canonical Russians here once THEY decide who that is

I guess that would be the most correct situation. I hope we can agree that the "jurisdiction matter" in the US and Europe is a totally uncannonical situation.
It is just the way certain "interest groups" want to achieve this unity gives the whole strive a bad look.

This leaves the EP with nothing nearly and the COG with all of the original see of Constantinople outside of Turkey.

Not really, since big parts of the original See are now part of the Serbian, Bulgarian and Russian Churches. :mrgreen:
But serious now, this whole situation is a result of several moments in Greek history:

1) the revolution of 1821 which caused the liberation of parts of (present-day) Greece.
2) The foundation of the Church of Greece (not recognized by the EP).
3) The recognition of the Church of Greece by the EP.
4) The liberation of more parts of Greece in the succesive wars up untill the Balkan wars of '12 and '13.
5) The "Megali Katastrofi" of the '20ies and the successive exchange of populations which left the EP in effect without a flock (within Turkey at least).

This list is in no way complete, but to compile a list stating ALL the reasons is beyond my knowledge (I never studied Church history or even secular history).

Now all these points lead into one direction: gradually the Greek state is taking shape, liberating more and more land from the Turks and in the process, for several reasons, founds it's own National Church.

It is an easy argument, and one used often by the EP and it's defenders, to speak of phyletism (ofcause always directed towards others, never to itself).
But is this really a case of phyletism? I highly doubt it.

First of all, the COG was not founded as an "ethnical Church" in opposition of the EP, but due to outside influence (Anglo-German pressure) and a realisation of the fact that the EP was not in the position to rule "freely" over the liberated areas while being still under the turkish yoke (a situation unfortunately still existing in our times).
Let's not forget that St. Gregory V excommunicated the leaders of the revolution of 1821.

Second, if the COG would be a Church based on phyletism, would, could and should it ever be recognized by the EP?
The Bulgarians, accused of the same thing, had to do penance to have the excommunications lifted.

The COG is not asking for any Sees inside the territory of the EP (present-day Turkey), it's not even asking for any Sees OUTSIDE the said territory.
All it's asking for is the continuation of the present custom of electing the Hierarchs in Greece, in all freedom.
For Greece it is unacceptable that the election of Metropolitans IN GREECE would be ratified by the under mayor of Konst/nople, which would be the case if they would be elected by the Synod of the EP.
I guess that you, even if you don't agree with Greece's current stand, can have atleast some understanding for this last argument.

BTW please keep in mind that I am not a theologian, nor a (Church) historian nor a person who studied the Canons of our Church extensively, but just a "hobbyist" or, to use someone else's username, an Orthodox learner (which I remain untill the day I die).
If you see any silly remarks or wrong facts in what I wrote, just blame it on that "hobbyism".

I hope you don't think after reading all these ramblings that I like the situation we in Greece find ourselves in, because I do not, and I pray and hope that very soon a solution can be found for this terrible situation.

In Christ,

Makis

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Aristokles
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Post by Aristokles »

makis,
I am too tired for a lengthy, point by point response tonight.
I will say that I was aware of the situation in Australia and am in fact on the side of the Archbishop of Australia. In fact delay in upgrade of that archdiocese has allowed the same multi-jurisdictional problems that we have in the US to arise and fester 'down under".
I am not on any 'side' in a more final analysis; but on the side of the Church. Hence, continuing to whittle the canonical see of Constantinople will only cause the EP to prolong the terrible situation in the US. But rather than argue let me re-post something here which I posted on another forum (I am unsure as to rules here about cross-posting). I am sure you will find it interesting. BOLDS were added by me.

Demetrios

Act of the Major Holy and Sacred Resident Synod Convened in Phanar

Following is the translation of the Protocol No. 384 Act of the Major Holy and Sacred Resident Synod Convened at the Phanar on April 30, 2004, which accompanied the original Greek text.

Protocol Number 384

Holy Canons ordain that actions which certainly cause harm to canonical order and infringe upon it, in constituting an encroachment on the canonical territory of another Church, should be decried and condemned.

For according to Holy Scripture and the Fathers of the Church, order holds all things celestial and terrestrial together. All are duty-bound to maintain good order for it is the constitutive and cohesive element of peace: especially those presiding over the Churches, who, in full awareness of their own measure and bounds should remain within them. The holy canons of the Church, in perennial concord, enjoin that “a Bishop should not venture to effect ordinations outside of his own bounds in the townships and lands that are not subject to him, against the authority of those that hold such townships or lands”. Those who operate and act beyond their bounds are to be dealt with severely (35th Canon of the Holy Apostles, 2nd canon of the second Ecumenical Council, and others that concur), since by such encroachments on the provinces of others they drive away concord and good order, and confuse the Churches by becoming the tutors and perpetrators of disorder.

The Most Holy Church of Greece, which in the first place wilfully and against the canons seceded from the Constantinopolitan Holy and Great Church of Christ and presented a bad example to other Churches, realized with the passage of time the crooked path on which she was embarked and contritely asked that she regain the straight and orderly path. Thus on the basis of ecclesiastical and canonical arrangements, the Ecumenical Patriarchate granted her independence and autocephaly by the Patriarchal and Synodical Tome of 1850, which as her supreme ecclesiastical authority designated not some primate but a Permanent Synod, to be mentioned by the Hierarchs of Greece, whilst its President, the Metropolitan of Athens is not vested with the privileges of the head and primate of a church, but with those of the president of a local Synod, the Ecumenical Patriarch remaining her primate, to whom “the Holy Synod of Greece [should] refer on ecclesiastical matters that concern both and require joint deliberations and joint action ..., and the Ecumenical Patriarch with the Holy and Sacred Synod about Him willingly vouchsafes his participation, announcing what must be to the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece”. The Holy Synod of the new Autocephalous Church obtained full authority to regulate affairs pertaining to internal ecclesiastical administration by Conciliar Acts provided they would not contravene the Holy Canons of the Holy and Sacred Councils or the patrimony of traditional usage or the formulae of the Orthodox Eastern Church.

Then the Septinsular provinces initially, followed by the provinces of Thessaly were fully annexed to the Autocephalus Most Holy Church of Greece, so that “they should be spoken of, and be known by all as conjoined and attached to her, and as being an inalienable part of her” by the Patriarchal and Conciliar Acts of 1866 and of 1882 respectively, which released them from any dependence under the Ecumenical Throne.

But subsequently, after the disaster of Asia Minor and the flight or exchange of populations, as times and circumstances took a turn for the worse, and threatened the very existence of the Holy Great Church of Christ, this common Mother and protectress of the Orthodox, no longer able to give a gift of her own without incurring danger, made other arrangements in respect of the Provinces of the so-called New Lands by means of an Act appropriate to the occasion and circumstances, with the consent of those in charge of the Race, so that the Mother who from the beginning has born fair progeny, who has thrived as a vine in the gables of the house of the Lord and has lavishly and unstintingly provided, by diminishing her own but not thereby becoming destitute, so that she might wither not and perish not but continue to perform her role as the Church with the prime throne amongst the Orthodox, ministering to their unity and commonweal, and continuously, through history as well as in the present, magnifying the Race of the Greeks and of the Orthodox generally. If other nations possessed this most ancient, unique and majestic institution of the Ecumenical Throne they would do their utmost to reinforce it and to increase its status and its influence.

Therefore to this purpose the ecclesiastical provinces that have been mentioned of Crete, the New Lands and the Dodecanese, to which should be added the Holy Mountain Athos and the other Holy Patriarchal and Stavropegic Monasteries in Greece continue under various degrees of dependence to constitute canonical territory of the Church of Constantinople which, until now, has not ceded her full jurisdiction over them to any other Church , nor is she intending so to do. They all lie within the canonical boundaries of the Church of Constantinople. In consequence, the person who proceeds with elections and ordinations of Bishops without the opinion and consent and agreement of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, who acts thus arbitrarily and without invitation, perpetrates the most grievous canonical offence of acting beyond his bounds and outside his see, thus encroaching on another’s provinces, and usurping and robbing another’s rights.

Now, wherefore His Beatitude Christodoulos, our brother the Archbishop of Athens, from the moment of his accession to the Archiepiscopal Throne of Athens, repeatedly and frequently did wilfully transgress against the Patriarchal and Synodical Tome of 1850 on the one hand, by seeking to be mentioned as Primate both within the Autocephalous Church of Greece and in the New Lands without the concurring opinion of the Holy Great Church of Christ, and against the Patriarchal and Synodical Act of 1928 on the other hand by failing to observe its Terms and, despite the express and stated objection of the Ecumenical Throne, by intervening arbitrarily with the ordination of Bishops in those provinces, wherein the supreme canonical rights of the most sacred Ecumenical Throne remain entire, and wherefore by all he does, despite the warnings and canonical claims of the Mother Church, he persists in disorder, and harms himself and the pleroma of the Church, becoming thus the cause of scandal and division in the Hierarchy and the laity, and therefore, in order to arrest any further progress of this evil, and in the hope of achieving the swift restoration of canonical order which has been disturbed:

a) we deem the recent elections and translations to be invalid, having been held and effected in violation of the specific Terms of the Act of 4 September 1928, through acts passing beyond proper bounds and impinging within an another’s jurisdiction, and consequently un-canonically, and the holy sees of Thessaloniki, Eleftheroupolis, and Servia and Kozani still vacant;

b) with unutterable sadness and pain we resolve the interruption of communion with His Beatitude Christodoulos, Archbishop of Athens, his name being stricken from the Diptychs of our Holy Great Church of Christ, and himself being rendered unable to commune with us, or with the clergy and monks who are subject to our Church, either in worship or in administration;

c) we enjoin those thus “elected” not to assume their provinces: otherwise communion will be interrupted with them as well;

d) we earnestly beg the Honourable Hellenic State not to assist in the dissolution of canonical order by the promulgation of the pertinent Presidential Decrees;

e) we express the most intense displeasure and sorrow of the Mother Church to those Hierarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, fortunately few in number, who assisted in the “ordinations” of those thus elected; and

f) we make it known that in the event that this canonical anomaly should continue, the Ecumenical Patriarchate will be forced to proceed with the abrogation of the Patriarchal and Synodical Act of 1928.

Thereupon in proof and attestation of the foregoing this, our present Patriarchal and Synodical Act was done, drawn up in this Sacred Codex of our Holy Great Church of Christ.

In the year 2004, the 30th in the month of April
XII in the epinemesis

  • Bartholomeos of Constantinople
  • Chrysostomos of Ephessos
  • Photios of Heraclea
  • Ioannis of Nicaea
  • Aemilianos of Cos
  • Demetrios of America
  • Evangelos of Pergi
  • Kallinikos of Lystra
  • Gregorios of Thyateira and Great Britain
  • Gennadios of Italy
  • Jeremias of Switzerland
  • Constantinos of Derkai
  • Germanos of Theodoroupolis
  • Avgoustinos of Germany
  • Athanassios of Helioupolis and Theira
  • Germanos of Tranoupolis
  • Pavlos of Sweden and all Scandinavia
  • Panteleimon of Tyroloe and Serention
  • Panteleimon of Belgium
  • Eirinaios of Cydonia and Apokoronos
  • Nectarios of Leros and Kalymnos
  • Chrysostomos of Syme
  • Amvrosios of Karpathos and Kasos
  • Cyrillos of Imvros and Tenedos
  • Apostolos of Miletos
  • Michael of Austria
  • Ioannis of Pergamon
  • Iacovos of Pringeponnesa
  • Eirinaios of Lambi, Syvritos and Sfakia
  • Nectarios of Petra and Cherronesos
  • Meliton of Philadelphia
  • Demetrios of Sevasteia
  • Soterios of Korea
  • Evgenios of Hierapytna and Seteia
  • Eirinaios of Myriophyton and Peristasis
  • Apostolos of Moschonisia
  • Anthimos of Rethymnon and Avlopotamos
  • Emmanuel of France
  • Theoleptos of Iconium
  • Andreas of Arkalochorion
  • Epiphanios of Spain and Portugal
  • Cyrillos of Rhodes
Etienne
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Post by Etienne »

From "The Times", London
17 May, 2004

BISHOP DENOUNCED FROM THE HEAVENS
From John Carr, in Athens

Police in central Greece were searched for a runaway monk and a retired army officer yesterady after they flew over the city of Larissa at the weekend in a microlight aircraft, dropping leaflets denouncing the local bishop.

The orange and yellow aircraft circled several times over the centre of Larissa during the feast of St Achilliosm, the city's patron, on Saturday.

Daubed in black letters on the underside of both wings was a slogan calling on Metropolitan Ignatios, the city's bishop, to resign. Under the tailwing was written the single word "Unworthy" - the standard term employed in the Greek Orthodox Church to oppose a clerical appointment.

In recent months the Church has been riven by a territorial dispute between the semi-autonomous Church of Greece and the Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarchate in Istanbul, which is the spiritual head of 200 million Orthodox Christians. The row has poisoned relations between monks and state employed clergy inside the Greek Church.

The aircraft, registered with the Larissa Aero club, was ordered to land at the club airfield. However, the pilot saw police on the runway and veered off, crash-landing in a cornfield. The monk and the pilot were believed to have fled to one of several monasteries in the hills north of Larissa


Like others I struggle to fully comprehend the complexities of this 'dispute'. Sadly 'territorial' disputes within Orthodoxy appear to galvanise heirarchies considerably more than do 'issues of faith' or adherence to Christian Orthodox teaching and belief, it appears........

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