Old Ritualists

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
Ephrem
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Old Ritualists

Post by Ephrem »

Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me more about the "Old Believers" or "Old Ritualists". I've read about the history of the Schism, but am unfamiliar with their current situation.

Mostly I would like to have some writings of the Holy Fathers on this issue.

Thank you in advance,
ephrem

Ephrem Cummings, Subdeacon
ROAC

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Macrina
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Re: Old Ritualists

Post by Macrina »

I think the only way you might find out more about them is to go talk with them, that is, if they will even talk with you. I am referring to the ones in the US, I don't know about the ones in Russia.
Which "writings of Holy Fathers"? Theirs or ours. Most Russian Old Believers don't accept any saints after 1667 (not even St Seraphim of Sarov). ROAC did extend their apologies to them as far as I know. That may have had more of an effect in Russia than in the US.

I don't even know how you'd identify an Old Ritualist, since as I recall they are priestless.

Once when I was visiting relatives up north (Pennsylvania, New Jersey area) I took a picture of one very small Old Believer church. And had called about a visit which was denied. I think if i had been Russian they may have at least talked to me a bit.

Here is some info that you may be able to glean something from.

Ephrem
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Re: Old Ritualists

Post by Ephrem »

Thank you for the information, Macrina!

Ephrem Cummings, Subdeacon
ROAC

jgress
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Re: Old Ritualists

Post by jgress »

Not all Old Ritualists are priestless. Some have even been in communion with the Church for a long time.

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Macrina
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Re: Old Ritualists

Post by Macrina »

jgress wrote:

Not all Old Ritualists are priestless. Some have even been in communion with the Church for a long time.

By no means am I any authority on the matter. But yes, it would seem that any Old Ritualist in Russia would in this age be in communion with the churches.

Do both the Old Believers and the Old Ritualist use the "lestovka" (ladder in Old Slavonic) prayer rope? I have seen one or two Russian Orthodox using that prayer rope in Orthodox churches here in the US.

I believe ROCOR maintained some Old Believer traditions such as St Ephrem of Syria's prayer and traditional praxis from the Old Believers Orthodox Prayer Book.

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Dionysios
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Re: Old Ritualists

Post by Dionysios »

Ephrem wrote:

I was wondering if anyone could tell me more about the "Old Believers" or "Old Ritualists". I've read about the history of the Schism, but am unfamiliar with their current situation.

Mostly I would like to have some writings of the Holy Fathers on this issue.

Some books on the history of the Old Ritualists include:

'Russia, Riual,and Reform' by Paul Meyendorf (SVS Press, about 235 pages) is a study of the mid-1600's schism itself by a non-Old Ritualist that is sympathetic to the Old Ritualist perspective. The first half of the book is historical, and the second half goes over what Nikon changed.

'The Old Believers and the World of Antichrist: The Vyg Community and the Russian State 1694-1895' by Robert Crummey (258 pages) is a history of the principle priestless Old Ritualist community in Russia which in Crummey's words was the cultural capitol of Old Belief. I get the impression that many consider Crummey the authority on Old Believers in the english speaking world.

'Old Believers in a Chnging World' by Robert Crummey (267 pages) is an anlysis of historical Old Belief.

'Old Believers in Modern Russia' by Roy Robson (188 pages) is written by an Old Believer parishioner of the Holy Nativity Orthodox Church of Erie, PA (that is part of ROCOR) who brings the history to modern times.

Sobornosti: Essays on the Old Faith' by Matthew Raphael Johnson (195 pages) is written by a sympathetic Old Calendarist priest who interviewed current Old Believers in Russia. This has the most recent information of which I am aware.

The Moscow patriarchate lifted the anathema of 1666 in the 1960's if I remember correctly, and a ROCOR synod in the early 1970's lifted the anathemas. It may be of significance that the ROCOR synod which lifted those anathemas and was convened by Metropolitan Philaret occurred while in communion with both the Florinites and Matthewites.

I have personally used the prayer book printed by Holy Nativity Orthodox Church in Erie, PA because it is the best that I have come across in the english language. I ran into some heavy prejudice and malignment from a couple of individuals while living in Greece for using the two fingered cross myself. I wanted to make sure that I was doing it correctly, and I therefore visited the Nativity Church in Erie. At the time, I was still searching for a priest with my synod (Matthewite of Archbishop Nicholas), and I was strongly persuaded that it was the will of God for me to visit their Church one time to learn about their way of making a cross and perhaps other traitions of theirs in spite of their ecumenism. They knew I was Matthewite and not interested in communion with them, but I respected them. And they were very hospitable. I found that several clergy such as Bishop Antony Gavalas and a knowledgeable monk from HTM in Boston thought highly of the iconographer there. And I had a memorable conversation with Archpriest Pimen Simon who took time out during a busy Holy Week service to talk to me about these things. I will not forget that. When I did later find a priest confessor within my synod, I discussed this issue and my bitter experience in Greece with him, and he said that we should all greive for this schism. He said that it is not the Old Believers fault that this schism occurred. He said we pushed them out, and it is our fault, and God knows this. That attitude was one of the reasons that I decided to make him my confessor. I should mention that none of these clergy condemn the three fingered cross either.

It was actually my study of icons while living in Greece to find out the truth about the 1995 Matthewite schism that lead me to reading 'The Theology of the Icon' by Ouspensky. I noticed that Ouspensky closely follows 'Ways of Russian Theology' by Florovsky which I subsequently acquired. Although Florovsky heavily criticised the Old Believers, I could not help but notice that western traditions of iconography came into Russia at precisely the same era as the schism - the 1600's.

I perceive that Russian Churches of the Romanov era that were in communion with the official Church but that retained Old Believer traditions perhaps followed a straight and narrow path. Such Churches tended to be more numerous in Siberia or other areas beyond the reach of the government. One Canadian Old Ritualist wrote a chapter in a book called 'Outwitting the State' which is about various kinds of traditionalist communities in different parts of the world that have found ways to continue and persist with their traditions.

Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth thee to stray from the words of knowledge.

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Re: Old Ritualists

Post by Matthew »

Dionysios wrote:

....I have personally used the prayer book printed by Holy Nativity Orthodox Church in Erie, PA because it is the best that I have come across in the english language. I ran into some heavy prejudice and malignment from a couple of individuals while living in Greece for using the two fingered cross myself....
.......One Canadian Old Ritualist wrote a chapter in a book called 'Outwitting the State' which is about various kinds of traditionalist communities in different parts of the world that have found ways to continue and persist with their traditions.

I had a similar experience in Greece. Unfortunately many of the Greeks in Greece are very insulated and seem unaware of the history of the Orthodox Church outside of Greece. The Greeks I met were convinced that the two fingered cross was in itself heretical, a position the doggedly maintained even after proving that by logic they were then in communion with heretics for hundred of years if that were the case. Hence, it could not be a heretical cross. But this to no avail....

Where can I find that book?

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