Priests separated from thier wives

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mmcxristidis
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Priests separated from thier wives

Post by mmcxristidis »

I would like to know what the canons say about a priest and his wife who are separated from one another, and not living together as husband and wife. May the priest still perform the Divine Liturgy and serve a parish during this time ? If so, and they never divorce, may this state continue indefinitely ? How about if they divorce ?

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Re: Priests separated from thier wives

Post by GOCPriestMark »

It depends on a number of things, including why they are living seperately. I doubt that we would want to talk about this in detail here.
There is a canon of the Regional Council of Neo-Caesarea which might help you understand at least partially how the Church views some situations (not necessarily this one):
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CANON VIII
When the wife of a layman commits adultery, if she has been convicted openly of this offense, that layman cannot enter the service. If, on the other hand, she commits adultery after his ordination, he must divorce her. But if he continues to live with her, he cannot retain possession of the office that has been placed in his hands.
Interpretation
The present Canon decrees that in case the wife of any layman commit adultery, and the fact is openly proved through persons who have the rights to lay charges against her (concerning whom see the Footnote to Apostolic Canon XLVIII), her husband cannot ascend to any priestly rank or hieratical degree.
Likewise also in case the wife of one in Holy Orders commits adultery, this man in Holy Orders must divorce his wife who has been guilty of adultery if he wants to retain the advantage of being in Holy Orders. But if he insists on keeping this adulteress, he cannot at the same time keep also the advantage of being in Holy Orders too, but, on the contrary, must be deposed therefrom. See also Apostolic Canon XXV.
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There is probably more about this in the canons, and some references are given above, but it really is up to the bishop of a priest to look into his situation.

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Priest Mark Smith
British Columbia

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mmcxristidis
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Re: Priests separated from thier wives

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I was aware of the canon in the case of adultery. My question should have asked what the canons had to say about cases of priests separating for something other than adultery, such as, non- compatibility, domestic violence or mental abuse.
If the priest is the cause in these cases, may he still serve ? What if it's the wife's fault ? What if both are guilty ?
If the priest is allowed to serve in case like these while separated, is he given a certain amount of time to reconcile with the wife ? What if they do eventually divorce, is he allowed to serve a parish, or must he go to live in a monastery ?
I read about a case in my city a few years ago of a new calendarist priest ( i know they don't always follow the canons ) who divorced his wife, I'm not sure of the reasons. He continued to serve for a while, then gave up the priesthood so he could remarry and went into selling real-estate

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Re: Priests separated from thier wives

Post by joasia »

If you are troubled by a priest that might be your confessor, then I can only relate a story of a monk (long ago) who had issues with a monk-priest in his monastery. Perhaps someone else can provide the name of this monk; I remember the story, but not the details of what year or what name.

This monk knew of a priest-monk that killed someone. Whether it was self-defence or the sin of anger, I don't remember. But, this monk had a big problem with that. So, one day, he saw the priest-monk heading for the Holy Altar, to prepare for the service. But, by God's Will, the monk saw the body of the dead man draped over the priest's back. When the monk saw the priest say his prayers during the time of dressing for the service, he saw the dead man's image disappear. Once the priest said his prayers at the end of the service, the image of the dead man reappeared on him.

Point of the story, is that a man who is a priest, is also a man. The particular sins associated in a relationship or from the person's character, in God's eyes, are seperated from the duties the man has as a priest. God distinguishes the two (unless it is about teaching heresy). All people have their burden of sins to carry, even a priest. But, the action of the Holy Spirit, during any Church service, is based on Christ's promise to us, that He will always be with us. If He based it on the integrity of the man who is a priest serving, in the Church, then there would be no Church.

It is a temptation, to view a priest as the whole image of his place in the Church and link it to his personal struggles. But, there are so many examples, of men, in the Old Testament that show greatness before God, in their faith, but also expose weaknesses of their sinful state. And there are examples in the New Testament. Sts. Peter and Paul argued about the circumscison. That may not seem so bad to us(because it was worked out - and we see the result), but no doubt it caused confusion for the people, back then. What might they have thought about it? Would they have felt scandalized?

I know I'm writing a lot, but I hope it helps you to understand the issue. What it comes down to, is that we tend to worry more about what someone else is doing, in their private lives, then what we are doing for ourselves (for our salvation). God wants us to know what to do for our salvation, which is repentence. He is doing enough worrying for the priests. None of these concerns will come up when it is our time for personal judgement. What will be judged is our efforts in realizing our own sins and what we tried to change in ourselves. You can't be saved by knowing the sins of someone else, but you can be saved by realizing your own, through repentence.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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mmcxristidis
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Re: Priests separated from thier wives

Post by mmcxristidis »

[quote="joasia"]If you are troubled by a priest that might be your confessor, then I can only relate a story of a monk (long ago) who had issues with a monk-priest in his monastery. Perhaps someone else can provide the name of this monk; I remember the story, but not the details of what year or what name.

This monk knew of a priest-monk that killed someone. Whether it was self-defence or the sin of anger, I don't remember. But, this monk had a big problem with that. So, one day, he saw the priest-monk heading for the Holy Altar, to prepare for the service. But, by God's Will, the monk saw the body of the dead man draped over the priest's back. When the monk saw the priest say his prayers during the time of dressing for the service, he saw the dead man's image disappear. Once the priest said his prayers at the end of the service, the image of the dead man reappeared on him.

Point of the story, is that a man who is a priest, is also a man. The particular sins associated in a relationship or from the person's character, in God's eyes, are seperated from the duties the man has as a priest. God distinguishes the two (unless it is about teaching heresy). All people have their burden of sins to carry, even a priest. But, the action of the Holy Spirit, during any Church service, is based on Christ's promise to us, that He will always be with us. If He based it on the integrity of the man who is a priest serving, in the Church, then there would be no Church.

{The priest is not my confessor.
I believe the church established the canons as a good guild line to be followed. I asked if anyone knew what the canons said regarding my questions.
I have been told by a couple of priests who I have much respect for that the canons say that if a priest should happen to kill anyone, and that includes through no fault of his own, such as a traffic accident, he can no longer serve as a priest with blood on his hands. So much for your story.
I understand that of coarse the priest is only a man. In my experience with priests I have known personally, I must say that 95% of them had double standards in regards to what was acceptable conduct for themselves and their families as opposed to their parishioners. For instance, a priest I knew would always be preaching about how parents should keep a close eye on what their kids( he has 7) are doing and the friends they keep.They should'nt allow their children to watch TV or play video games. When I went over to his house one day they were in the church hall watching TV and playing video games. They went though a couple of TV's that I knew of, and when they broke they always got a new one.One son got busted selling drugs,a daughter had a baby out of wedlock, another was quite promiscuous. Yet this priest gave people the impression that his family was perfect while criticizing the way others raised their children. The priest himself was far from having clean hands in a couple of business arrangements that I knew of. I realize we can't always be held responsible for everything our kids do, however, I think a priest should set as good an example as possible. So, if I see something something amiss in the priest's life, I think it's Ok if I use caution before I get too involved with him and his advice, especially if he my confessor.}

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Re: Priests separated from thier wives

Post by mmcxristidis »

joasia wrote:

I
It is a temptation, to view a priest as the whole image of his place in the Church and link it to his personal struggles. But, there are so many examples, of men, in the Old Testament that show greatness before God, in their faith, but also expose weaknesses of their sinful state. And there are examples in the New Testament. Sts. Peter and Paul argued about the circumscison. That may not seem so bad to us(because it was worked out - and we see the result), but no doubt it caused confusion for the people, back then. What might they have thought about it? Would they have felt scandalized?

I know I'm writing a lot, but I hope it helps you to understand the issue. What it comes down to, is that we tend to worry more about what someone else is doing, in their private lives, then what we are doing for ourselves (for our salvation). God wants us to know what to do for our salvation, which is repentence. He is doing enough worrying for the priests. None of these concerns will come up when it is our time for personal judgement. What will be judged is our efforts in realizing our own sins and what we tried to change in ourselves. You can't be saved by knowing the sins of someone else, but you can be saved by realizing your own, through repentence.

( In reading your past postings, I see your a big advocate of advising others to be mostly concerned of our own personal sins and repentance. Of coarse we should be most concerned with dealing with our personal sins and our own repentance. However, what others do, especially clergy, can have a negative effect on our spiritual lives and the way we view things, which can affect our repentance I believe.
If the blind lead the blind they are both in danger of falling into a ditch, so we must be careful whose examples we follow. If that still small voice inside us tells us something is not quite right, we should take a step back and examine it
I will try not to get into too much detail. Example, for those who know about the tragic case of the 'monks" of the faded into history, Christ of the Hills Monastery in Blanco,Texas. I was a big supporter of theirs, donated money, visited a couple of times, directed others to it, ect. I had many questions in my head about the ways they conducted themselves, things i saw there, ect. i could'nt shake the feeling something was very wrong, however I thought since the bishops accepted them and did'nt do anything about things that when on there, they knew better than me and I was the one wrong for thinking bad thoughts about them. I visited there, had even more questions about them, but they were very big about saying " judge not, lest ye be judged". I felt guilty and put my questions aside. months later I again visited there for Pascha and took my newly Orthodox Godson along. The church services were impeccable and beautiful, and my Godson fell in love with the place and monastic life and wanted to stay as a monk. I started having the same feelings about the place , even more than before, yet felt guilty (again judge not) thinking these thoughts that something wrong and evil was going on there. My Godson asked what I thought about him staying on, I was about to tell him my apprehensions about the monks, yet feeling guilty about my thoughts I did'nt saying it was a good idea. I regret not saying it was'nt a good idea. Not too many months after that, as those familiar with what happen know , the dung hit the fan and all hell broke loose. I know my Godson had nothing to do with the scandal other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, being too trusting, and believing what those over him were saying (i.e. monastic obedience)I have no idea where he is now or if he's still in the Orthodox church.
Bottom line is I believe it's right to question those in authority over us if we have lingering questions about what they say or do.}

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Re: Priests separated from thier wives

Post by joasia »

So much for your story.

It wasn’t so much to excuse the priest for not following the Canons, but that I remember that story as an example of seperating the sin of the man from the function of a priest. Perhaps, I did speak out of context to your inquiry.

I think a priest should set as good an example as possible. So, if I see something something amiss in the priest's life, I think it's Ok if I use caution before I get too involved with him and his advice, especially if he my confessor.}

Your explanation of this priest makes me think that he has his struggles. The lines become blurred between knowing and doing. That happens to all of us.

However, what others do, especially clergy, can have a negative effect on our spiritual lives and the way we view things, which can affect our repentance I believe. If the blind lead the blind they are both in danger of falling into a ditch, so we must be careful whose examples we follow.

I used to think that way... I allowed the clergy’s conduct to effect my spiritual life, negatively. But, then I realized that my conscience will be my judgement and I need to discern them. But, of course, many people are still effected. I went through the scandals of thoughts about what went on in ROCOR with my parish and priests. Now, I think, that I need to turn the focus inward. I kow about what is out there, but I don’t want that to prevent me from looking within myself. But, I still keep tract of what’s going on. And then I still remind myself that my spiritual path is in God’s Hands because I trust Him and He will protect, with the prayers of the Theotokos and the supplications of my saint and guardian angel.

Bottom line is I believe it's right to question those in authority over us if we have lingering questions about what they say or do.}

I’ve learnt that the hard way, myself. And when I look back, I always kick myself for not following through on my initial thoughts...I think that is also our guardian angels whispering to us...like you said, you can’t shake that feeling. Let’s face it...we aren’t so clear-minded to understand these things on our own...I think we get help from them. So, I believe that a person, who has a nagging feeling about something, should voice it. It may avert disaster.

Please forgive me for getting off the subject. I’ll shut up now. :)

Joanna

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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