Holy Fire in Jerusalem??

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
User avatar
khomes
Jr Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri 22 August 2014 6:42 pm
Faith: True Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Matthewites- Metropolitan Kirykos
Location: Arizona

Holy Fire in Jerusalem??

Post by khomes »

Ok so, here is my question.

If the World Patriarchates are in heresy, why then is the Holy Fire in Jerusalem still happening? If he was a heretic, then wouldn't it cease to happen? for example, there were 4 times heretics tried to accomplish the holy fire and it did not happen. once was a the monophysite Armenian bishop and the other three were roman catholic clergy. Could someone then explain how the miracle still happens from the patriarch of jerusalem if he is an ecumenist... :?

I was baptised into the Genuine Orthodox Church with the name Matthew on March 1 2016

"Preserve my children: patience, compassion, wisdom, gentleness, humility, silence, fasting, prayer. Prayer gives humility, modesty, and obedience. He who keeps these reasons that lead to the imitation of Christ, provides for the salvation of his immortal soul; he who despises them, despises his own salvation."
- St. Matthew the New Confessor

jgress
Moderator
Posts: 1382
Joined: Thu 4 March 2010 1:06 pm
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA

Re: Holy Fire in Jerusalem??

Post by jgress »

The Orthodox Patriarch has been sharing the Holy Fire with the Armenians for a long time. It predates the modern ecumenical movement. But I think the two answers are the following:

  • We can't say for sure the Holy Fire is still authentic. The fact that it occurs so regularly is kind of suspicious to me; miracles are not usually so predictable. There is a tradition of skepticism towards the Holy Fire in the Russian Church at any rate; I believe Fr Steven Allen, who was in ROCOR before the MP union, was told that it was not authentic.

  • If it is authentic, we can't put limits on God's ability to work miracles. I'd say He was simply offering a sign of hope and the Resurrection to pilgrims who might still be ignorant of the truth.

User avatar
khomes
Jr Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri 22 August 2014 6:42 pm
Faith: True Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Matthewites- Metropolitan Kirykos
Location: Arizona

Re: Holy Fire in Jerusalem??

Post by khomes »

jgress wrote:

The Orthodox Patriarch has been sharing the Holy Fire with the Armenians for a long time. It predates the modern ecumenical movement. But I think the two answers are the following:

  • We can't say for sure the Holy Fire is still authentic. The fact that it occurs so regularly is kind of suspicious to me; miracles are not usually so predictable. There is a tradition of skepticism towards the Holy Fire in the Russian Church at any rate; I believe Fr Steven Allen, who was in ROCOR before the MP union, was told that it was not authentic.

  • If it is authentic, we can't put limits on God's ability to work miracles. I'd say He was simply offering a sign of hope and the Resurrection to pilgrims who might still be ignorant of the truth.

At the same time, the Holy Fire has been occurring since long before Rome left the Church. Also there have been many instances in history where muslims and others have converted to Orthodoxy because of the Holy Fire. I definitely believe in the miracle of the Holy Fire. However I think it is one of those things that it is not because of the patriarch but rather in spite of the patriarch, God still gives us this sign for comfort out of His love. Although I do not like all of his material, Archbishop Gregory in colorado has a good video about the Holy Fire. I was looking for, perhaps, some other explanations.

I was baptised into the Genuine Orthodox Church with the name Matthew on March 1 2016

"Preserve my children: patience, compassion, wisdom, gentleness, humility, silence, fasting, prayer. Prayer gives humility, modesty, and obedience. He who keeps these reasons that lead to the imitation of Christ, provides for the salvation of his immortal soul; he who despises them, despises his own salvation."
- St. Matthew the New Confessor

jgress
Moderator
Posts: 1382
Joined: Thu 4 March 2010 1:06 pm
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA

Re: Holy Fire in Jerusalem??

Post by jgress »

I suppose I'd just say don't worry about miracles, just like you shouldn't worry whenever the conservative New Calendarists go on about all their "holy elders". I reckon 50% of the time they're just blowing hot air (the miracle isn't real or that elder isn't really so holy), and the other half of the time there may be something there but it doesn't prove anything. The Catholics claim all sorts of miracles for their own "saints", but even if they are genuine what does it prove?

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: Holy Fire in Jerusalem??

Post by Maria »

We must be sober and watchful, and beg God for the gift of discernment.

Personally, I believe in the Holy Fire because several of my close friends have been to Jerusalem and they have their hands in the Holy Fire without getting burned, and then put their entire face into the flame without a single hair being burnt. It is significant that when the New Calendar and New Style "Catholic" Pascalion was being observed in 1924 by the EP and the Greek Church, the Holy Fire did not ignite on the day when Catholics and the EP celebrated Easter. Since the faithful rose up against this novel change in the Pascalion, the EP was forced to change the Pascalion back to the Orthodox date of Pascha, while retaining the New Calendar for the rest of the year. Thus, one can see the devious agenda of the EP which was unmasked by the Orthodox faithful. If the EP had not changed from the Catholic Easter back to the Orthodox Pascha, then few people would be observing the New Calendar as it stands today.

There have been several incidents at Mount Athos where monks have disobeyed their elder's caution not to go chasing after miracles because the devil himself will work wonders that may even deceive monks and elders. While some of these monks ended up dying in strange circumstances, others were spared by the grace of God, so that they were able to repent, confess their disobedience, and thus warn their fellow monks to be sober and watchful (read the first epistle of St. Peter).

We are also told that the AntiChrist will work signs and wonders.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

jgress
Moderator
Posts: 1382
Joined: Thu 4 March 2010 1:06 pm
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA

Re: Holy Fire in Jerusalem??

Post by jgress »

Maria wrote:

We must be sober and watchful, and beg God for the gift of discernment.

Personally, I believe in the Holy Fire because several of my close friends have been to Jerusalem and they have their hands in the Holy Fire without getting burned, and then put their entire face into the flame without a single hair being burnt. It is significant that when the New Calendar and New Style "Catholic" Pascalion was being observed in 1924 by the EP and the Greek Church, the Holy Fire did not ignite on the day when Catholics and the EP celebrated Easter. Since the faithful rose up against this novel change in the Pascalion, the EP was forced to change the Pascalion back to the Orthodox date of Pascha, while retaining the New Calendar for the rest of the year. Thus, one can see the devious agenda of the EP which was unmasked by the Orthodox faithful. If the EP had not changed from the Catholic Easter back to the Orthodox Pascha, then few people would be observing the New Calendar as it stands today.

There have been several incidents at Mount Athos where monks have disobeyed their elder's caution not to go chasing after miracles because the devil himself will work wonders that may even deceive monks and elders. While some of these monks ended up dying in strange circumstances, others were spared by the grace of God, so that they were able to repent, confess their disobedience, and thus warn their fellow monks to be sober and watchful (read the first epistle of St. Peter).

We are also told that the AntiChrist will work signs and wonders.

I'd never heard that story about the EP in 1924, or that the EP even adopted the Western Paschalion at that time. Do you have a source? It sounds interesting and, if true, adds new perspective to the circumstances of the calendar reform.

I have read a story about the time when Jerusalem adopted the new calendar briefly, around 1970 I think, and the Holy Fire allegedly did not descend so the JP returned to the traditional calendar.

One should be careful when using the Holy Fire or its absence to make a point about ecclesiology. E.g. if the Holy Fire descended after the EP returned to the traditional Paschalion, one could use that as evidence that God only really cares about the Paschalion, which is still the standard argument among the conservative New Calendarists. And to return to the OP, if the Holy Fire continues to descend even on the ecumenists, couldn't that be used as evidence that the ecumenists are still in the Church?

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: Holy Fire in Jerusalem??

Post by Maria »

I read about the incident of the Holy Fire in the biography of St. Glicherie of Romania.

Some of the people who stayed in the NC churches in Romania became very upset when a new common Paschalion was established and the Holy Fire did not occur, so they staged demonstrations. The Hierarchy in the NC churches in Romania then allowed people to celebrate the new common Paschalion on either date: according to the Catholics and Protestants or according to the tradition set by the Ecumenical Council. This resulted in some priests celebrating Pascha twice in a given year.

If I am in error, please correct me.

When I was in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (New Calendarist) back in the late 1990s, some of their priests were pushing for a new common Paschalion that was astronomically correct, so that Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians could celebrate Pascha on the same date worldwide. These priests likewise discounted the Holy Fire. However, the laity became upset, and the issue was dropped.

I think a new common Paschalion will ultimately be imposed on those in the New Calendar. It is a matter of time.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Post Reply