Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.

Moderators: Maria, phpBB2 - Administrators

User avatar
Lydia
Member
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu 20 December 2012 2:44 am
Faith: Russian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ex-HOCNA and searching

Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Lydia » Mon 12 January 2015 3:16 am

Nope. HOCNA does not require its members to believe in Awake, Sleeper. (Not sleepers)
I know many clergy and laity that reject it.
Bishop Ephraim has stated many times publicly (as I can personally attest) that this is his opinion.

I also know that the Toronto parishes left for other reasons than this. Bishop Moses and Bishop Sergios had other issues, too.

HOCNA has embraced heresy and fallen from the True Orthodox, no doubt. But, what happened, why and when are much more complicated and layered that this. Oh, the stories I could tell...

User avatar
Isaakos
Member
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun 5 January 2014 1:27 am
Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin- Discerning the GOC’s.

Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Isaakos » Mon 12 January 2015 5:47 am

So it seems clearly enough that HOCNA was schismatic. Why? Because they were created by Auxentius after his synod had deposed him. Not to mention HTM was itself schismatic before this for abandoning ROCOR.

So I guess the issue is: Rule out the schismatics, I.e. The priests who abandoned their bishops for crimes or canonical infractions and NOT for schism or heresy, working back all the way to 1935 and who is left?
Blessed is the man who has volunteered to hold and keep until the end of his life our holy Orthodox faith, the faith of the one Church of Christ and our mother, the Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Archbishop Matthew Karpathakis

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8018
Joined: Sat 12 June 2004 12:39 am
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Maria » Mon 12 January 2015 6:30 pm

Lydia wrote:Nope. HOCNA does not require its members to believe in Awake, Sleeper. (Not sleepers)
I know many clergy and laity that reject it.
Bishop Ephraim has stated many times publicly (as I can personally attest) that this is his opinion.

I also know that the Toronto parishes left for other reasons than this. Bishop Moses and Bishop Sergios had other issues, too.

HOCNA has embraced heresy and fallen from the True Orthodox, no doubt. But, what happened, why and when are much more complicated and layered that this. Oh, the stories I could tell...


Blue color is my emphasis.

Other than heresy and schism, people cannot leave a church for "other issues." If they do, then they become schismatics themselves and are outside of the church. Once a local church has fallen into schism and heresy, and the bishop is complicit in it as Met. Ephraim was with his belief in Awake, Sleeper and in Name Glorifying or Name Worshiping most certainly there will be other issues. Because once a local church has fallen into schism and heresy, then they lack sacramental grace, and slowly but surely, they will begin to produce bad fruit as was seen in Elder Panteleimon's serious fall and his ultimate reduction to the status of a simple monk.

And what Philaret is saying is also correct. The history of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, MA (also known as HTM, HOCNA, or HOMB) was schismatic from the very beginning and perhaps, just perhaps, Elder Panteleimon's fall from grace could be attributed to this underlying schism.

Note that in the late 1970s, the GOC (currently under Archbishop Stephanos) had stated that their reason for leaving ROCOR was the pan-heresy of Ecumenism as proven by the heretical concelebrations of Anthony of Geneva with the EP. Interestingly, when HTM left ROCOR in the 1986, they appeared to give the same correct reason for leaving as the pan-heresy of Ecumenism perhaps even plagiarizing the GOC documents. However, HTM only presented one of their many smokescreens as their real underlying reason was not heresy but the eminent obfuscation of the sexual abuse acts committed by Elder Panteleimon against his own monks. Thus HTM committed a schismatic act in breaking with ROCOR just as ROCOR was trying to bring HTM before a spiritual court.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

User avatar
khomes
Jr Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri 22 August 2014 10:42 pm
Faith: True Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Matthewites- Metropolitan Kirykos
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby khomes » Mon 12 January 2015 7:16 pm

Philaret, I love the avatar! And yes HOCNA was schismatic from the beginning.
Last edited by Maria on Mon 12 January 2015 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited with permission.
I was baptised into the Genuine Orthodox Church with the name Matthew on March 1 2016

"Preserve my children: patience, compassion, wisdom, gentleness, humility, silence, fasting, prayer. Prayer gives humility, modesty, and obedience. He who keeps these reasons that lead to the imitation of Christ, provides for the salvation of his immortal soul; he who despises them, despises his own salvation."
- St. Matthew the New Confessor

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8018
Joined: Sat 12 June 2004 12:39 am
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Maria » Mon 12 January 2015 7:55 pm

Please be careful to keep on topic and not get into Intra-TOC polemics.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

User avatar
Lydia
Member
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu 20 December 2012 2:44 am
Faith: Russian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ex-HOCNA and searching

Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Lydia » Tue 13 January 2015 2:48 am

Maria wrote:
Lydia wrote:Nope. HOCNA does not require its members to believe in Awake, Sleeper. (Not sleepers)
I know many clergy and laity that reject it.
Bishop Ephraim has stated many times publicly (as I can personally attest) that this is his opinion.

I also know that the Toronto parishes left for other reasons than this. Bishop Moses and Bishop Sergios had other issues, too.

HOCNA has embraced heresy and fallen from the True Orthodox, no doubt. But, what happened, why and when are much more complicated and layered that this. Oh, the stories I could tell...


Blue color is my emphasis.

Other than heresy and schism, people cannot leave a church for "other issues." If they do, then they become schismatics themselves and are outside of the church. Once a local church has fallen into schism and heresy, and the bishop is complicit in it as Met. Ephraim was with his belief in Awake, Sleeper and in Name Glorifying or Name Worshiping most certainly there will be other issues. Because once a local church has fallen into schism and heresy, then they lack sacramental grace, and slowly but surely, they will begin to produce bad fruit as was seen in Elder Panteleimon's serious fall and his ultimate reduction to the status of a simple monk.

And what Philaret is saying is also correct. The history of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, MA (also known as HTM, HOCNA, or HOMB) was schismatic from the very beginning and perhaps, just perhaps, Elder Panteleimon's fall from grace could be attributed to this underlying schism.

Note that in the late 1970s, the GOC (currently under Archbishop Stephanos) had stated that their reason for leaving ROCOR was the pan-heresy of Ecumenism as proven by the heretical concelebrations of Anthony of Geneva with the EP. Interestingly, when HTM left ROCOR in the 1990s, they appeared to give the same correct reason for leaving as the pan-heresy of Ecumenism perhaps even plagiarizing the GOC documents. However, HTM only presented one of their many smokescreens as their real underlying reason was not heresy but the eminent obfuscation of the sexual abuse acts committed by Elder Panteleimon against his own monks. Thus HTM committed a schismatic act in breaking with ROCOR just as ROCOR was trying to bring HTM before a spiritual court.


Yes. Everything is just as you stated, Maria.
I have a question, though. Since there are many "GOC's", which synod does Archbishop Stephanos head? Did he take over from Archbishop Nicholas? Is there a website you could direct me to? Thanks.

User avatar
Barbara
Protoposter
Posts: 3447
Joined: Sat 29 September 2012 10:03 pm

Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Barbara » Tue 13 January 2015 3:41 am

I have been trying to look that up, too, Lydia, but didn't find anything offhand. Please let us know, Maria, where to look.


Return to “Theology and Tradition”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests