Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present.

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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Justin Kolodziej » Tue 30 September 2014 1:28 am

I was aware he pretty much became a Zen master instead of a Christian, but not how he died, so I didn't pay that much attention. I did read one of his earlier books and thought it was OK at the time, though older books like The Imitation of Christ or Ascent of Mt. Carmel or Dark Night of the Soul were much better. Of course better yet are the works of the Church Fathers, the Sayings of the Desert Fathers especially.
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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby El Batman » Tue 30 September 2014 1:51 am

Maria wrote:How can a Roman Catholic be led to salvation through Buddhism?

Only through Christ and His Holy Church can we be saved.



not according to roman catholic tradition, maria. Baptism of Desire interpreted freely means EVERYBODY is pretty much saved through the merits of jesus christ and his only church, the roman one. LOLZ the traditionalist bishops liquidate the membership of anyone opposed to this. forum moderators banish anyone bringing up doubts. that rebellious crackhead archbishop marcel lefebvre proudly wrote about it in at least two of his books. against the heresies and an open letter to confused catholics. i have both books.

baptism of desire baptism of blood invincible ignorance = near universal salvation through christs church.
Last edited by Maria on Tue 30 September 2014 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Maria » Tue 30 September 2014 2:15 am

El Batman wrote:
Maria wrote:How can a Roman Catholic be led to salvation through Buddhism?

Only through Christ and His Holy Church can we be saved.



not according to roman catholic tradition, maria. Baptism of Desire interpreted freely means EVERYBODY is pretty much saved through the merits of jesus christ and his only church, the roman one. LOLZ the traditionalist bishops liquidate the membership of anyone opposed to this. forum moderators banish anyone bringing up doubts. that rebellious crackhead archbishop marcel lefebvre proudly wrote about it in at least two of his books. against the heresies and an open letter to confused catholics. i have both books.

baptism of desire, baptism of blood, invincible ignorance = near universal salvation through christs church.


That sounds strangely like the "Awake Sleepers" heresy which HOCNA promotes.
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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Isaakos » Sun 11 January 2015 10:14 am

When I was Catholic I always interpreted Baptism of Desire strictly: As in, the explicit desire to receive baptism could justify you, in that it is a necessary prerequisite in order to worthily receive baptism, but it in itself cannot replace baptism. Proof enough of this is, if a person who was unbaptized died, went to heaven, spoke with Christ, and came back to earth and told their bishop they had already been to heaven, would he give them the Eucharist immediately? No! They need to be baptized!

I have since learned that some of the saints and fathers said that the unbaptized who DO make it to paradise will abide there, but they will be "blind." Because they were not illumined by baptism, they do not see the light of GOD, but they experience his goodness. I never ever considered that option as a Catholic, because the definition of heaven is Beatific Vision! The closest thing to what was described was Limbo, the outermost edge of hell, where the punishment is not sensate pain, but deprivation of the VISION of God. Natural happiness is possible though.

So, if we briefly decide to call this state "Limbo" it would seem (and I realize how crude it is to put it this way) that the Orthodox conceive of a Limbo-like state for the souls of the virtuous unbaptized which had its location in paradise,

Whereas the Roman Catholics conceive of Limbo as punishment and so place at the outermost edge of Hell.

How do YOU view the fate of unbaptized Children and Vietuous pagans?
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Maria
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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Maria » Sun 11 January 2015 9:03 pm

As a Roman Catholic youth, I was taught that Limbo was a place of natural happiness, neither a state of deprivation, nor of punishment. Nevertheless, Limbo was never defined as a dogma of faith in Roman Catholicism.

Certainly, in today's ecumenical circles, one cannot find this teaching of Limbo at all. Instead what is taught is Awake Sleepers, which is a dogma in the heretical traditional Orthodox group known as HOCNA, or the concept of invincible ignorance, whereby those who never knew Christ would be taught about Him in the Afterlife.

Mr. James Atkina, a former Protestant and now Catholic evangelist, wrote the following:
In many parts of the world it is easy for people to display reasonable but not supererogatory diligence and be invincibly ignorant concerning the Christian faith in general or the Catholic Church in particular. The assertion that there are no invincibly ignorant people also is manifestly contrary to the teaching of the Church, which acknowledges that there are "righteous people in all religions" (CCC 2569).


To read the entire article by James Atkins of Catholic Answers, please go to http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/ ... ecnum=1203
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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Lydia » Sun 11 January 2015 11:05 pm

Maria wrote:As a Roman Catholic youth, I was taught that Limbo was a place of natural happiness, neither a state of deprivation, nor of punishment. Nevertheless, Limbo was never defined as a dogma of faith in Roman Catholicism.

Certainly, in today's ecumenical circles, one cannot find this teaching of Limbo at all. Instead what is taught is Awake Sleepers, which is a dogma in the heretical traditional Orthodox group known as HOCNA, or the concept of invincible ignorance, whereby those who never knew Christ would be taught about Him in the Afterlife.

Mr. James Atkina, a former Protestant and now Catholic evangelist, wrote the following:
In many parts of the world it is easy for people to display reasonable but not supererogatory diligence and be invincibly ignorant concerning the Christian faith in general or the Catholic Church in particular. The assertion that there are no invincibly ignorant people also is manifestly contrary to the teaching of the Church, which acknowledges that there are "righteous people in all religions" (CCC 2569).


To read the entire article by James Atkins of Catholic Answers, please go to http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/ ... ecnum=1203

Awake, sleeper! is not a dogma in HOCNA. It is an opinion of their ruling hierarch Bishop Ephraim. It is a heresy he believes which very few HOCNA members agree with. He believes (but does not teach) that Christ will present himself to all men after death and each one will have the choice to accept Him or reject Him. This is qualitatively different than the Roman Catholic doctrine of Invincible Ignorance.

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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Postby Maria » Mon 12 January 2015 2:29 am

Lydia wrote:
Maria wrote:As a Roman Catholic youth, I was taught that Limbo was a place of natural happiness, neither a state of deprivation, nor of punishment. Nevertheless, Limbo was never defined as a dogma of faith in Roman Catholicism.

Certainly, in today's ecumenical circles, one cannot find this teaching of Limbo at all. Instead what is taught is Awake Sleepers, which is a dogma in the heretical traditional Orthodox group known as HOCNA, or the concept of invincible ignorance, whereby those who never knew Christ would be taught about Him in the Afterlife.

Mr. James Atkina, a former Protestant and now Catholic evangelist, wrote the following:
In many parts of the world it is easy for people to display reasonable but not supererogatory diligence and be invincibly ignorant concerning the Christian faith in general or the Catholic Church in particular. The assertion that there are no invincibly ignorant people also is manifestly contrary to the teaching of the Church, which acknowledges that there are "righteous people in all religions" (CCC 2569).


To read the entire article by James Atkins of Catholic Answers, please go to http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/ ... ecnum=1203

Awake, sleeper! is not a dogma in HOCNA. It is an opinion of their ruling hierarch Bishop Ephraim. It is a heresy he believes which very few HOCNA members agree with. He believes (but does not teach) that Christ will present himself to all men after death and each one will have the choice to accept Him or reject Him. This is qualitatively different than the Roman Catholic doctrine of Invincible Ignorance.


Note that I did use the conjunctive "or" which does not equate Limbo to the teaching of Awake Sleepers. Those two concepts differ substantially.

LIMBO
According to the pre-Vatican II catechisms of the Roman Catholic Church, Limbo was a state of natural happiness where unbaptized good people and innocent children reposed. They never had a chance to enjoy Heaven. Those unbaptized people who were evil or in grievous sins were damned for eternity, only the innocent or righteous could repose in Limbo. Again, Limbo was not a dogma or doctrine in Roman Catholicism. It could be called a theologoumen.

AWAKE SLEEPERS
According to HOCNA, the Awake Sleepers heretical teaching was to be held by all members of HOCNA in good standing. It was not an optional theologoumen. In this teaching, all those unbaptized persons who had died were given a chance to accept or reject Christ, much like those in Hades during Christ's Descent, were given the same opportunity to accept or reject Christ. Whereas in Limbo, the unbaptized were kept in Limbo and could never enter Heaven, the unbaptized (aka Awake Sleepers) could accept Christ and could enter Heaven.

The insidiousness of the Awake Sleepers' teaching is that it lulls Orthodox Christians to sleep, for if the unbaptized have a chance to be saved, then why preach to them the message of salvation? Why not leave their salvation in Christ's hands? Isn't this contrary to the Biblical teaching that we are to preach the Good News to everyone and that in order to be saved, everyone must be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

Why else did St. Seraphim of Sarov preach and encourage us to "acquire the Holy Spirit and a thousand around you would be saved?" Why else did Christ tell us to instruct the ignorant? If we do not live good lives and care for others by feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, instructing the ignorant, visiting the sick and the imprisoned, then Christ will not recognize us.

In addition, this heretical Awake Sleepers teaching of Met. Ephraim is why Father Panagiotes Carras and the clergy and laity of Toronto separated from HOCNA in 2011, and also why later a third group later separated from HOCNA due to the Awake Sleepers AND Name-Worshiping Heresies, which were bought taught in Met. Ephraim's writings and oral teachings. Previously Met. Moses, Bishop Sergios and the clergy and laity of the Diocese of Portland had left HOCNA over canonical issues, not issues involving schism and heresy. However, all three groups that left HOCNA agreed in the end that the Awake Sleepers and Name-Worshiping Heresies were serious reasons to support their leaving HOCNA.
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