Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

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jdigrande
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Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Post by jdigrande »

A much better way to define salvation in relation to the church is to say that there are no true sacraments outside the Church.

Also the boundaries of "the Church" needs to be defined in each of the warring jurisdictions in the Old Calendar, most of which are not in eucharistic communion with anyone outside of them. That lack of a definition of the boundaries of the church is the most confusing thing of all.

For example does the GOC (Arch.Stephanos) consider RTOC or STOC inside the Church?

Justice
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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Post by Justice »

jdigrande wrote:

A much better way to define salvation in relation to the church is to say that there are no true sacraments outside the Church.

Also the boundaries of "the Church" needs to be defined in each of the warring jurisdictions in the Old Calendar, most of which are not in eucharistic communion with anyone outside of them. That lack of a definition of the boundaries of the church is the most confusing thing of all.

For example does the GOC (Arch.Stephanos) consider RTOC or STOC inside the Church?

I don't think they've made an official statement on the matter. Plus, I don't think the GOC-Stephanos is engaging in dialogue with any other synod at the moment.

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Orthodox in Michigan
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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Post by Orthodox in Michigan »

The Holy Orthodox Church is the repository of the divinely revealed Truth in all its fullness and fidelity to apostolic Tradition. Hence, he who leaves the Church, who intentionally and consciously falls away from it, joins the ranks of its opponents and becomes a renegade as regards apostolic Tradition. The Church dreadfully anathematized such renegades, in accordance with the words of the Saviour Himself (Matt. 18:17) and of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:8-9), threatening them with e ternal damnation and calling them to return to the Orthodox fold. It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who knowingly pervert the truth...* They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own

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Orthodox in Michigan
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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Post by Orthodox in Michigan »

I was wondering could this be something considered more of a world orthodox view or was met philaret trying to comfort people in some way,can this be compatible with true orthodox positions and also with the creed of one holy catholic and apostolic church.

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Orthodox in Michigan
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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Post by Orthodox in Michigan »

Does this imply someone who does not know they are not in the church , however beleives in jesus christ follows his commands can be morally purified following the teachings and creed of that church the best way the know how?

Im not sure how the theif found paradise without a babtism or the mysteries.

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Orthodox in Michigan
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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Post by Orthodox in Michigan »

Also does anyone know if when this statement was made and if the goc mathew had known or joined to the church abroad before or after this .

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Maria
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Re: Outside the Church, there is no salvation?

Post by Maria »

Orthodox in michigan wrote:

Also does anyone know if when this statement was made and if the goc mathew had known or joined to the church abroad before or after this .

The GOC joined the ROCOR in 1971 asking for a copy of their statement of faith, but none was provided them. In spite of the lack of a statement of faith, the GOC remained in communion with the ROCOR trusting in their good faith, and believing that Met. Philaret of New York was a holy man of God.

Later on in 1976, about five years later, when the truth about ROCOR's Anthony of Geneva's intercommunion with the heterodox was made known, and when several priests and parishes had left Anthony to join the GOC, then the GOC left the ROCOR and wrote an encyclical condemning Ecumenism within the ROCOR.

What is interesting is that HOCNA probably knew about this encyclical but waited until after Elder Panteleimon was charged with the sexual abuse of his monks and also waited until after the death of Met. Philaret of New York before denouncing ROCOR for Ecumenism in 1986. That was ten years after the GOC had already condemned the ROCOR of Ecumenism!

This is why HOCNA has been accused of using smokescreens. Perhaps not so strange is that HOCNA recognizes Met. Philaret of New York as a saint.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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