Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
The sins of the fathers do affect their children. There is generational sin. Even Christ referred to this when he healed the man born blind. .
Is this just? We talk of personal responsability. So, is it just that the sons of Adam that did not nothing were affected by what Adam did? If it is injust, how can we say that God is just because he is the one who established this law since paradise that the sons of Adam would be affected by a possible sin of Adam i.e eating the forbidden fruit? Then if an injust law is established by God, this contradicts his justice. Those are the questions that the person is asking. Any idea of what is the orthodox view on this?
The sins of the fathers do affect their children. There is generational sin. Even Christ referred to this when he healed the man born blind. .
Is this just? We talk of personal responsability. So, is it just that the sons of Adam that did not nothing were affected by what Adam did? If it is injust, how can we say that God is just because he is the one who established this law since paradise that the sons of Adam would be affected by a possible sin of Adam i.e eating the forbidden fruit? Then if an injust law is established by God, this contradicts his justice. Those are the questions that the person is asking. Any idea of what is the orthodox view on this?
In the Roman Catholic Church, there is this statement during Great Lent: O Felix Culpa
O happy fault that earned for us so great, so glorious a Redeemer!
God in His justice and mercy sent His Only Begotten Son that we may be saved.
Yes, we have suffered, but justly because we have all sinned. Suffering brings us to our knees in repentance, where we cry to God for mercy. Then God in His great mercy, answers our cries of pain and repentance and saves us.
He that was taken by death has annihilated it! He descended into hades and took hades captive! He embittered it when it tasted his flesh! And anticipating this Isaiah exclaimed, "Hades was embittered when it encountered thee in the lower regions." It was embittered, for it was abolished! It was embittered, for it was mocked! It was embittered, for it was purged! It was embittered, for it was despoiled! It was embittered, for it was bound in chains!
It took a body and, face to face, met God! It took earth and encountered heaven! It took what it saw but crumbled before what it had not seen!
"O death, where is thy sting? O hades, where is thy victory?"
Christ is risen, and you are overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb!
For Christ, being raised from the dead, has become the First-fruits of them that slept.
To him be glory and might unto ages of ages. Amen. [/list]
Regarding the Church Fathers, below is just a partial listing.
ST. IRENAEUS (c. 180 AD)
....having become disobedient, [Eve] was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race....Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith. ...But this man [of whom I have been speaking] is Adam, if truth be told, the first-formed man....WE, however, are all FROM him; and as WE are FROM him, WE have INHERITED his title [of sin]. ...Indeed, THROUGH the first Adam, WE offended God by not observing His command. Through the second Adam, however, we are reconciled, and are made obedient even unto death. For we were debtors to none other except to Him, whose commandment WE transgressed at the beginning. (Against Heresies 3:22:4; 3:23:2; 5:16:3)
ST. EPHRAIM OF SYRIA (c. 306 - 373 AD)
Adam sinned and EARNED ALL SORROWS, AND THE WORLD, FOLLOWING HIS LEAD, ALL GUILT. And it took no thought of how it might be restored, but only of how its fall might be made more pleasant for it. Glory to Him that came and restored it! (Hymns of the Epiphany 10:1)
ST. ATHANASIUS (c. 360 AD)
Adam, the first man, altered his course, and through sin death came into the world....When Adam transgressed, SIN reached out TO ALL MEN. (Discourses Against the Arians 1:51)
ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. 350 AD)
The crown of the cross led into the light those who were blinded by ignorance, loosed all those who were chained by their sins, and redeemed the totality of men. Do not wonder that the whole world is redeemed. It was no mere man, but the only-begotten Son of God, who died on its behalf. Indeed, ONE MAN'S SIN, THAT OF ADAM, HAD THE POWER TO BRING DEATH TO THE WORLD. If by the transgression of one, death reigned over the world [Rom 5:17], why should not life more fittingly reign by the righteousness of one? If they were cast out of paradise because of the tree and the eating thereof, shall not believers now enter more easily into paradise because of the tree of Jesus? If that man first formed out of the earth USHERED IN UNIVERSAL DEATH, shall not He that formed him out of the earth bring in eternal life, since He Himself is Life? (Catechetical Lectures 13:1-2)
ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. 383 AD)
Before we are born WE ARE INFECTED WITH THE CONTAGION, and before we see the light of day we experience the INJURY OF OUR ORIGIN. IN INIQUITY WE ARE CONCEIVED [cf. Psalm 51:5] -- he does not say whether the wickedness is of our parents or our own -- AND IN SINS each one's mother gives him life. Nor with this did he state whether his mother gave birth to him in her own sins or whether the sins of which he speaks pertain in some way to being born. But consider and see what is meant. NO CONCEPTION IS WITHOUT INIQUITY, since there are NO PARENTS WHO HAVE NOT FALLEN. And if there is NO INFANT WHO IS EVEN ONE DAY WITHOUT SIN, much less can the CONCEPTIONS of a mother's womb be WITHOUT SIN. We are conceived, therefore, in the sin of our parents, and it is in their sins that we are born. (Explanation of David the Prophet 1:11:56, Jurgens comments that in the above passage "the emphasis is upon concupiscence")
Adam was brought into being; and WE WERE ALL BROUGHT INTO BEING IN HIM. Adam perished and IN HIM ALL PERISHED. (Commentary on the Gospel of Luke 7:234, c. 389 AD)
Well, it will not convince the person I am talking with in fact; because he sees as injustice the fact that for the sin of one, all are punished...
One should not cry over split milk. The sinful deed was done, and God's beautiful world was forever changed, but we have been purified, illuminated and sanctified by the Holy Mysteries of Initiation (Baptism, Chrismation and Communion).
However, before the creation of the world, Satan along with one-third of the Angelic realm fell due to pride. So, even if God had struck Adam and Eve dead and started all over again, there is a good chance that the new humans would have fallen into sin. The fault is not found in God, but lies in the fact that we are creatures, and because we are creatures, we are imperfect even though we were created "good." For this reason, our members war against each other. We have free will, but our wills are easily won over by arguments from Satan and from our own passions and emotions.
The discussion is happening with a non Christian, so your argument will not convince him... And do not answer in fact to his question. He understands the process that for Adam's sin there is a repercussion on Adam's sons. He understands the logic but sees no justice in it because the sons of Adam did nothing wrong . There is for instance a law of the Old Testament saying that the son will not be punished for the sin of the Father and vice versa. Aren't they punished, in fact being deprived of paradise for something they did not do? Where is the justice there? That is his main objection.
I see much writing explaining the transmission to the descendance of Adam, but no writing refuting the fact that such transmission is not injust.
I guess the answer is that, while the transmission of Adam's sin to all his descendants is unjust, so is the redemption of all mankind by Christ unjust. Christianity teaches that we are born in a state of sin and mortality through no fault of our own, but that by accepting Baptism and the Orthodox faith, we can become partakers of Divinity through no merits of our own. I would say that's a bargain.
The discussion is happening with a non Christian, so your argument will not convince him... And do not answer in fact to his question. He understands the process that for Adam's sin there is a repercussion on Adam's sons. He understands the logic but sees no justice in it because the sons of Adam did nothing wrong . There is for instance a law of the Old Testament saying that the son will not be punished for the sin of the Father and vice versa. Aren't they punished, in fact being deprived of paradise for something they did not do? Where is the justice there? That is his main objection.
I see much writing explaining the transmission to the descendance of Adam, but no writing refuting the fact that such transmission is not injust.
A just God according to some Protestants is a wrathful and punishing God, much like our human justice system as seen in the secular courts. We did sin. Adam and his sons also sinned. Although the numerable sins of Adam and his descendants are not mentioned, according to the Psalmist King David, we sin seven times or more a day. Didn't Cain kill Abel? Yet, in spite of this sin, God had mercy on Cain and did not kill him. In addition, we see time and time again in the Old and New Testaments, that God also shows His loving kindness and mercy. He could have killed the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah along with Lot and his family, instead He guided Lot's family to safety. He gave them a warning not to look back, so when Lot's wife looked back, she was turned into stone. Is that unjust? No, He did give a fair warning. Furthermore, God sent the Prophets to prepare us for Christ, but the Israelites killed most of the Prophets. Finally, He sent His Only Begotten Son and allowed the Israelites to subject Christ to a brutal death on the Cross. God could have destroyed the world in His anger when we killed the Christ, instead by Christ's death, Christ overcame death, set free the captives in Hades, and opened Paradise for us. Great is our God! Christ is Risen! Truly He is Risen!
