The Fall and God's injustice

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jgress
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Re: The Fall and God's injustice

Post by jgress »

That sounds a little like Met Anthony Khrapovitsky's theory that we are all born mortal in anticipation of the sins we will commit later in life, but I don't think that interpretation has been accepted, just as Fr John Romanides' theory that we only inherit mortality and that all sin is caused by our fear of death is highly controversial. Even if you accept either theory, the question of justice remains: why should we be punished for sins we have not yet committed or might not even commit, or why should all Adam's descendants be condemned to death for what their forefather did?

From the quotes you posted, Maria, it looks like the Fathers acknowledge and accept the injustice of ancestral sin and our inherited weakness and mortality. The explanation is that it concerns laws of nature: since sin harms nature, and we inherit nature from our parents, we inherit the effects of sin from our parents, also. It's not a "just" law, but it's the way the universe works. But God overcame the injustice of nature by the power of the Cross.

Another thing to consider is that holiness and union with God has always involved struggle. I suspect some of the complaints about injustice involve envy over the apparent easiness of living in Paradise. But in Paradise Adam and Eve were given just a little task to fulfill, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and they disobeyed. So even if we were taken to Paradise now, we would still struggle to keep God's commandments because of our pride. The purpose of our present weakness is to humble ourselves and remove the temptations of pride. As Maria pointed out, the conditions for our salvation are better now than they would have been had we remained immortal and suffered no consequences for our disobedience; we would have become like Satan and the fallen angels instead.

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Maria
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Re: The Fall and God's injustice

Post by Maria »

jgress wrote:

That sounds a little like Met Anthony Khrapovitsky's theory that we are all born mortal in anticipation of the sins we will commit later in life, but I don't think that interpretation has been accepted, just as Fr John Romanides' theory that we only inherit mortality and that all sin is caused by our fear of death is highly controversial. Even if you accept either theory, the question of justice remains: why should we be punished for sins we have not yet committed or might not even commit, or why should all Adam's descendants be condemned to death for what their forefather did?

From the quotes you posted, Maria, it looks like the Fathers acknowledge and accept the injustice of ancestral sin and our inherited weakness and mortality. The explanation is that it concerns laws of nature: since sin harms nature, and we inherit nature from our parents, we inherit the effects of sin from our parents, also. It's not a "just" law, but it's the way the universe works. But God overcame the injustice of nature by the power of the Cross.

Another thing to consider is that holiness and union with God has always involved struggle. I suspect some of the complaints about injustice involve envy over the apparent easiness of living in Paradise. But in Paradise Adam and Eve were given just a little task to fulfill, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and they disobeyed. So even if we were taken to Paradise now, we would still struggle to keep God's commandments because of our pride. The purpose of our present weakness is to humble ourselves and remove the temptations of pride. As Maria pointed out, the conditions for our salvation are better now than they would have been had we remained immortal and suffered no consequences for our disobedience; we would have become like Satan and the fallen angels instead.

Re: Man's sense of justice versus his sense of fairness
I think the meaning of the word "just" needs to be defined. God is perfectly just. His laws and his ways are always just. Perhaps we are confusing the word "just" with that of our human concept of "fairness." Many people think that Christ was not being fair when he allowed the last laborers in the evening to have the same wages as those who came to work early in the morning. Is it fair that young babies who have not even struggled with adult temptations are allowed into Heaven? Is it fair that young babies suffer from cancer and die when they have committed no grievous sins?

Re: Met. Anthony Khrapovitsky's and Father John Romanides' theories of Redemption
I have neither read Met Anthony Khrapovitsky's theory nor Fr John Romanides' theory. However, my husband and I are currently studying Orthodox Dogmatic Theology: A Concise Exposition, Fr. Michael Pomazansky, St. Herman Brotherhood, 2005.

No, I do not believe that man was born mortal in anticipation of our sins, instead we were given an immortal soul along with the opportunity to be spared physical suffering and death if we had obeyed God. Some theologians have speculated that if we had not sinned, then at some set time, we would have been translated into Heaven much like Ezekiel who was taken up to Heaven in the chariot. Of course, some modern day ufologists are saying that the chariot was a UFO. :roll:

Interestingly, C.S. Lewis in his book The Pilgrim's Regress, describes people at various ages ascending to a particularly high mountain to meet the "Man in the Sky." However, the protagonist, a young teenager, leaves home and goes on a long journey seeking to avoid this supposedly tyrant "Man in the Sky" as he falls into various passions and heresies.

Re: The problem with free will: A train wreck waiting to happen
Yet, God in His omnipotence knew that man would sin because mankind was granted free will. God's foreknowledge can be compared with being on top of a mountain, as the "Man in the Sky," seeing two trains heading head on, and then witnessing the train wreck. If God had stopped those trains from a safe distance, much like a bothersome nanny anticipating trouble, man using his skills could have made those trains work again, and could have still created an accident. Or man could have climbed higher, seen the predicament, given praise to God, and taken remedial actions.

Train Crash on the news, May 9, 2014:

Re: The Creation of man and the Envy of Satan
While some moderns speculated that the creation of man described in Genesis was an experiment, others said that man was created good and is the highest of God's creation outside of the angelic realm. In fact, Satan was so jealous that the Incarnate God had created man in His own image and likeness, that he fell from heaven in his pride and jealousy and determined to destroy man who would otherwise have the opportunity to receive God the Word, as the Eucharist, into his very body and soul. Since Satan had been created without a body, he envied man who was created with bodily pleasures. No doubt, Satan was hoping that mankind would have been allowed to eat of the Tree of Life, and would in all fairness become his slaves for all eternity.

Thus, your last sentence, Jonathan, makes sense in light of Satan's unfathomable pride, anger, and jealousy. C. S. Lewis hints at this in his Chronicles of Narnia, when he refers to the "deep magic" that gave Satan (the Witch of Narnia) just power over all mankind due to man's (Edmond's) sin. Would that alternative have been just? Thank God for His loving mercy, that He saved us from eternal damnation and Satan's clutches.

Christ has Risen, and Hades has no power over us.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Re: The Fall and God's injustice

Post by jgress »

The distinction between "justice" and "fairness" sounds like it might be relevant. I guess the points to tell your friend, Jean-Serge, are the following:

  • Christians don't believe anyone deserves eternal life. Eternal life is a gratuitous gift of God; otherwise, we are simply mortal by nature and destined for death. So we have no grounds to complain if we are deprived of eternal life, since we didn't have rights to it in the first place.
  • The path to eternal life is laid out clearly for us: accept the Orthodox faith, be baptized in the Church and receive Communion and live our lives in repentance, which means struggling not to sin and confessing our sins whenever we commit them. So given that the path is laid out for us, we really have no excuse now to complain that we have been deprived of eternal life.
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Maria
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Re: The Fall and God's injustice

Post by Maria »

jgress wrote:

The distinction between "justice" and "fairness" sounds like it might be relevant. I guess the points to tell your friend, Jean-Serge, are the following:

  • Christians don't believe anyone deserves eternal life. Eternal life is a gratuitous gift of God; otherwise, we are simply mortal by nature and destined for death. So we have no grounds to complain if we are deprived of eternal life, since we didn't have rights to it in the first place.
  • The path to eternal life is laid out clearly for us: accept the Orthodox faith, be baptized in the Church and receive Communion and live our lives in repentance, which means struggling not to sin and confessing our sins whenever we commit them. So given that the path is laid out for us, we really have no excuse now to complain that we have been deprived of eternal life.

Excellent response!

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Re: The Fall and God's injustice

Post by Dcn.Ephrem »

Jean-Serge, I have only read the Fathers commenting on the way that sin was transferred to the entire human race, i.e. through passing on a corrupted human nature in reproduction. Each of us is personally responsible for accepting the healing which Christ brought into that nature when He became incarnate. This is the focus of the Fathers. It is not a testimony to God's injustice, but to the enormous consequence of human freedom. It is truly a mystery.

I have a hard time relating to your friend's argument, because the problem of inheriting sinful nature seems to so obviously be the fault of human beings. Sure, God allows this because of human freedom, but He also extends the opportunity of salvation to each newborn. He gives each new human the same opportunity to become far greater than Adam was in paradise.

(Also, Jonathon, I think that perhaps what you said was not quite what Metropolitan Anthony believed about death. He acknowledged that we suffer from death because Adam allowed it to enter into his nature. In the passage I think you are referring to, the Metropolitan was saying something about St. Paul's phrase, "and so death passed upon all men, because all have sinned" (Rom 5:12). He was saying that we are all called sinners, not because we descend from Adam, but because the All-Knowing God understood that each of us would sin. But death literally came into our nature through Adam, and all of the other consequences of sin. He was arguing that we do not inherit Adam's guilt, but only his corruption.)

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Re: The Fall and God's injustice

Post by Hieromonk Enoch »

God's Justice is certainly not as man's justice. In the Prophet Ezekiel we read:

"And you say: Why hath not the son borne the iniquity of his father? Verily, because the son hath wrought judgment and justice, hath kept all my commandments, and done them, living, he shall live. The soul that sinneth, the same shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and the father shall not bear the iniquity of the son: the justice of the just shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die. I will not remember all his iniquities that he hath done: in his justice which he hath wrought, he shall live. Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die.
And you have said: The way of the Lord is not right. Hear ye, therefore, O house of Israel: Is it my way that is not right, and are not rather your ways perverse? For when the just turneth himself away from his justice, and committeth iniquity, he shall die therein: in the injustice that he hath wrought he shall die. And when the wicked turneth himself away from his wickedness, which he hath wrought, and doeth judgment, and justice: he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth and turneth away himself from all his iniquities which he hath wrought, he shall surely live, and not die. And the children of Israel say: The way of the Lord is not right. Are not my ways right, O house of Israel, and are not rather your ways perverse? Therefore will I judge every man according to his ways, O house of Israel, saith the Lord God. Be converted, and do penance for all your iniquities: and iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, by which you have transgressed, and make to yourselves a new heart, and a new spirit: and why will you die, O house of Israel? For I desire not the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God, return ye and live." (Ezekiel 18:19-31)

The complaint of the Israelites was that God would accept repentance from wicked people, and would forgive their sins and it be as nothing; however, a 'good man' who did bad, his good deeds would be as nothing. The Israelites complain and say, "The way of the Lord is not right!"

Yet, God's response is to say that it is the Israelites that have a perverted view of what is right, what is truly Just. The Scriptures say God is Love, but, His Love is not as ours. His ways are not our ways.

St. Gregory Palamas says:
"The pre-eternal, uncircumscribed and almighty Word and omnipotent Son of God could clearly have saved man from mortality and servitude to the devil without Himself becoming man. He upholds all things by the word of His power and everything is subject to His divine authority. According to Job, He can do everything and nothing is impossible for Him. The strength of a created being cannot withstand the power of the Creator, and nothing is more powerful than the Almighty. But the incarnation of the Word of God was the method of deliverance most in keeping with our nature and weakness, and most appropriate for Him Who carried it out, for this method had justice on its side, and God does not act without justice. As the Psalmist and Prophet says, ‘God is righteous and loveth righteousness’ (Psalm 11.7), ‘and there is no unrighteousness in Him’ (Psalm 92.15). Man was justly abandoned by God in the beginning as he had first abandoned God. He had voluntarily approached the originator of evil, obeyed him when he treacherously advised the opposite of what God had commanded, and was justly given over to him. In this way, through the evil one’s envy and the good Lord’s just consent, death came into the world. Because of the devil’s overwhelming evil, death became twofold, for he brought about not just physical but also eternal death.

“As we had been justly handed over to the devil’s service and subjection to death, it was clearly necessary that the human race’s return to freedom and life should be accomplished by God in a just way. Not only had man been surrendered to the envious devil by divine righteousness, but the devil had rejected righteousness and become wrongly enamoured of authority, arbitrary power and, above all, tyranny. He took up arms against justice and used his might against mankind. It pleased God that the devil be overcome first by the justice against which he continuously fought, then afterwards by power, through the Resurrection and the future Judgement. Justice before power is the best order of events, and that force should come after justice is the work of a truly divine and good Lord, not of a tyrant….
“A sacrifice was needed to reconcile the Father on High with us and to sanctify us, since we had been soiled by fellowship with the evil one. There had to be a sacrifice which both cleansed and was clean, and a purified, sinless priest… It was clearly necessary for Christ to descend to Hades, but all these things were done with justice, without which God does not act.”

The justice, love, equity, fairness, etc, of man are not to be absolutely compared with God. There are only concept we can use to understand Him. Those who have been enlightened by the Holy Mysteries and live a life of penance and striving for virtue, however, will share in God's Life. This is what Christ means when He says:

"O Righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I have known Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them Thy Name, and will declare it: that the Love wherewith Thou hast Loved Me may be in them, and I in them." (John 17: 25-26)

Even in this earthly life we can begin to experience God's Divine Grace (His Operations or Energies which are Uncreated); and in some sense begin a miniscule understanding of what His Justice, Love, Mercy are.

In Christ,

Fr. Enoch

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Barbara
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Re: The Fall and God's injustice

Post by Barbara »

Excellent comments here ! Glad to see Fr Augustine posting again.
I can't contribute as well as he and all of you.

Here is a little excerpt from Archbishop Nathaniel [Lvov]'s sermon "About God".
I like how the Archbishop of Vienna in previous decades admits that we do not know why God
allows evil in the world.

"God created everything good and nothing evil. The evil appeared because of the fact that some of the created by God spiritual creatures, angels and people, having the freedom of choice, chose the evil and rejected God and His good. God does not take away his long-standing gifts. Thus, having freely rejected God and the good, the devil throws all his forces at the seizure of other reasonable creatures, first angels, and then people, from God.

Why does God let it happen? We do not know. But we believe and profess, that at the end of ages everything will turn out to be good, due to the power of Divine love and wisdom.

This does not mean that we should not fight with the evil. On the contrary, the Lord unceasingly struggles with it and calls us to do the same."

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/syn ... utgod.html

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