Date of Christmas

[NadirGP]

Jean-Serge,

You wrote:

“Thank you but most people here like myself are in the old calendar, in which it is today December 14th...”

Now I am off-topic here. However, may I ask where do you base the date of the Nativity of Christ, for as we know, whether Roman Catholic or Orthodox, we don’t have any historical documentation on which to base His birth date. Moreover, I do not think it was in winter for two reasons: The shepherds were minding their sheep on the hills in the night time; and Augustus the Roman Emperor would have been very unlikely to order a census for people coming from the four points of the earth during winter time.

Nadir

[Maria]

Jean-Serge,

You wrote:

“Thank you but most people here like myself are in the old calendar, in which it is today December 14th...”

Now I am off-topic here. However, may I ask where do you base the date of the Nativity of Christ, for as we know, whether Roman Catholic or Orthodox, we don’t have any historical documentation on which to base His birth date. Moreover, I do not think it was in winter for two reasons: The shepherds were minding their sheep on the hills in the night time; and Augustus the Roman Emperor would have been very unlikely to order a census for people coming from the four points of the earth during winter time.

Nadir

Exactly, and if the Church were to set an exact date, I am afraid that Pascha and the Nativity of Christ would often coincide. After all, our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, the Paschal Lamb.

[searn77]

I have read from a couple of sources (the sources that I read were not that reliable but maybe there are more reliable sources than what I read) that some early Christians believed that the world began on March 25th. Therefore it would theologically make sense to have the Annunciation celebrated on March 25th, and nine months after March 25th is December 25th.

[Hieromonk Enoch]

http://taylormarshall.com/2012/12/yes-c ... ember.html

I've never been convinced with the argument about the shepherds. I lived in North Carolina, and I remember warm Decembers, even mosquitoes being bad on a few occasions, and the grass still green. The author in the link above is exhaustive. The rather interesting argument of counting St. Zacharias priestly course, the accounting of when they served, and then counting this back, dating things off of St. John Baptist's conception is rather ingenious of an argument to demonstrate that Dec. 25th has a great deal of validity to it.

In Christ,

Fr. Enoch

[Maria]

http://taylormarshall.com/2012/12/yes-c ... ember.html

I've never been convinced with the argument about the shepherds. I lived in North Carolina, and I remember warm Decembers, even mosquitoes being bad on a few occasions, and the grass still green. The author in the link above is exhaustive. The rather interesting argument of counting St. Zacharias priestly course, the accounting of when they served, and then counting this back, dating things off of St. John Baptist's conception is rather ingenious of an argument to demonstrate that Dec. 25th has a great deal of validity to it.

In Christ,

Fr. Enoch

Thank you, Father, for that excellent link. It makes sense.

You mentioned growing up in North Carolina. We live in Southern California, and have a similar desert climate (western slope) and some of the same vegetation (chaparral) that is found in the Holy Land, but lambs tend to be born in the Spring--part of their biological cycle. In fact, we used to raise Nubian goats and our kids were always born in the Spring on a cold rainy night. We had to bring the poor shivering kids in from the rain, dry them off, and then warm them in our kitchen. If they are not brought in, they can easily succumb to pneumonia.

[joasia]

Jean-Serge,

You wrote:

“Thank you but most people here like myself are in the old calendar, in which it is today December 14th...”

Now I am off-topic here. However, may I ask where do you base the date of the Nativity of Christ, for as we know, whether Roman Catholic or Orthodox, we don’t have any historical documentation on which to base His birth date. Moreover, I do not think it was in winter for two reasons: The shepherds were minding their sheep on the hills in the night time; and Augustus the Roman Emperor would have been very unlikely to order a census for people coming from the four points of the earth during winter time.

Nadir

Perhaps the winters were a lot warmer back then, 2000 years ago. You need to consider what the people were experiencing back then, not now. Most people analyse what they know from their experiences, but don't consider that the times, back 2000 years ago were much different times. Just the same, it's still not as cold, in that area, compared to what we get here in Quebec. Today it was around -20C, your conversion -4F. For the shepherds here, they could not stay out in that cold...especially because of the Northern winds. But, in Bethlehem, I think it was a lot more balmy.

Even if they described their winters as being really cold, their location is still in a Southern region. On Wikipedia, they say that their lowest temperatures are from 33-55F. That's hardly deep freeze temperature from what we get. On Theophany (Jan. 19 n.c./Jan 6 o.c.), there was a light snow fall. Just straight down. And it was warm although it is winter. I certainly could have sat out there in that for a few hours and not feel a chill. It was such a comforting and joyous feeling; like a warm blanket.

Have you ever considered that because it was the day of Christ's birth that the weather would have been so pleasant and delightful?

When we use rationality in the wrong way, then we loose connection with God. Everything that is explained in the Holy Bible has a right place. But, we also need to keep in touch with the oral traditions and experiences of the people that continued to live their lives after the Resurrection. The events were all preserved by the lives of the people who continued to worship in Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour. They preserved the memory of the most greatest events in the world: the Nativity of Christ, the baptism of Jesus Christ, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension and Pentecost. It's all recorded and preserved in time.

This world wants to argue semantics by rationalization. Well, they're going down the wrong path.

So, yes, it is possible that Jesus Christ was born during the winter season.

I think it was plenty warm for shepherds to be out with their sheep.

[Maria]

The Theotokos spent time with St. Luke and related many details of her life to him as he painted her icons. Through him we have been blessed with copies of her likeness in all our churches. For example, there are the Odegetria and the Vladimir icons which have been ascribed to St. Luke.

So, it was most likely that she described the holy birth to him in detail, including the time and the date, as he was a physician too. Not everything was written down in the Bible gospels and epistles, so many of these details would have been transmitted orally.