Which heretics ?

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m. Evfrosinia
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Re: Which heretics ?

Post by m. Evfrosinia »

a large percentage, if not the majority, of Old Believers were of the merchant class (kupechestvo) and therefore they did attend "yarmarki", or fairs, as a matter of business. Not only for sales, but also for business meetings, making contacts, attracting new clients, etc., just as a representative of some company today would do while attending a trade fair. It was also an occasion for meeting Old Believers from other parts of the country, and for conducting their religious affairs. Groups that accepted priests would inquire about the availability of a priest for visiting their community, donations and requests for prayers or for readings of the Psalter would be passed on to sketes and monastic communities, matchmaking was done, etc. And a fair amount of preaching and proseletyzing took place, which is why the Church was wary of the fairs. Besides the prevalence of Old Believers, yarmarki also meant a lot of drinking and fighting, so obviously, nearby would not be the best place to establish a monastic community.

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Barbara
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Re: Which heretics ?

Post by Barbara »

Ahh ! I picture the fairs as like a merry go round with cotton candy. I never thought of the drinking and shouting and rude behavior
which it sounds like may have been typical.

That's a great picture to describe about the Old Believer need to meet at these fairs.

I didn't realize even that Old Believers had their own sketes ! Were these well-populated, as far as you are aware Mother Evfrosinia ?
And Old Believer monasteries ? Really ! That's interesting. I had no idea.

I can see why the Church would observe their activities carefully, especially with that proseltyization element at all gatherings apparently.

I thought it was not allowed, but maybe covertly went on ?

Really an informative answer, which brings alive that era.

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Re: Which heretics ?

Post by m. Evfrosinia »

They had some type of wooden merry-go-rounds, but definitely no cotton candy. :)
I'm no expert on Old Believers, but I have read a bit about them. Sergei Nilus' writings about the Optina monastery include accounts of Old Believers that returned to the Church; there were several among the Optina monks. He also published several of their testimonies, which include fairly detailed descriptions of their lifestyle, which he claimed to have found in the Optina archives. (Nilus lived right near Optina for several years and did extensive research in the monastery's archives) The Russian writer Leskov wrote a lot about the Old Believers. I was a real fan of his work until I learned that he had bitterly hated St. John of Kronstadt, and wrote a lot of satire and even slander about him. But the most famous author to write about the Old Believers was Pavel Melnik-Pechersky, a former government official who dealt with the Old Believers and initially persecuted them quite extensively, finding and shutting down several sketes. Over time he changed his views, and was one of the first to call for new laws that allowed them religious freedom. He wrote 2 novels about the Old Believers: "In the Woods" and "On the Hills", that are considered very accurate, as he was describing what he saw and experienced himself. They paint a picture of a very closed, insular society, very aware of and struggling against constant pressure from the world around them to conform and modernize. He describes their rituals and traditions beautifully. The picture is in no way idyllic. They were very much "on the fringe", and almost inevitably fell into all sorts of semi-legal and illegal activities: boot legging alcohol, smuggling, all sorts of tax evasion, and even the production of counterfeit coin. They did have monastic communities, mostly in very remote areas, up in Northern Russia, and out in Siberia, and some of them were sizable. "In the Forests" includes descriptions of a men's monastery (which happens to be the center for a lot of the illegal activity, so you can understand why the government was looking for these places. It wasn't only for religious reasons) and a women's monastery. One of the main characters of the novel is the Abbess. Old Believer girls would spend several years at these monasteries, learning to read and write, to run a household, and also the intricate rite and the chant.

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Barbara
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Re: Which heretics ?

Post by Barbara »

Fascinating rundown ! I wasn't at all familiar with Old Believer life after the 1660s.

I will note down the sources you gave to study more when I have time to read.

It opens up a whole world of how Russia used to be.

I didn't realize that some Optina monks were converted Old Believers, really interesting development.
Were there any known ones, such as disciples or cell attendants of Elders who were written up in the Elders' Lives ?

Perhaps the former Old Believer monks were not highlighted in history that way.

Why was Leskov AGAINST St John of Kronstadt ? It is the first time I ever heard of ANYONE being against
that unbelievable saintly priest !
Was Leskov a former Old Believer himself ?

I had no idea about the marginal nature of some of their economic activity !
So even though they were merchants, and now I do remember that much, that many Moscow merchants were Old Believers,
there was not enough of the economic pie for all the Old Believers to find legitimate trading opportunities ?
Interesting, all of your writeup.

I LIKE the idea of the girls going to the Convent for 3 years - it really is a good idea !
Should be done by all girls who are able, today especially, in the Orthodox Convents.
Few girls know much about home management, as they are pushed so obviously to become doctors, lawyers, professionals by
the prevailing social ideas of the time. Probably true in Russia as it absolutely is the case in the U.S.

That's really a smart idea. Maybe Lesna could take in a few girls and help train them - both in Church subjects as well as other aspects of
having to run a house or raise a family ?!
Sometimes good advice and training given at an early stage of life can make all the difference in that girl's future.

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Lydia
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Re: Which heretics ?

Post by Lydia »

Wouldn't that be wonderful! Orthodox schools for children; get them out of the clutches of "modern education>"

When I was young, I spent several months at a convent, thinking of becoming a monastic. I remember that the families who lived nearby started to use the convent as a day-care center. They dropped their children off in the morning, the nuns took care of them all day, and then they picked them up in the evening. When the Bishop found out, he forbad the nuns from doing this. He said if they wanted to care for children, they should go get married. :lol:

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Barbara
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Re: Which heretics ?

Post by Barbara »

It's true, it is NOT part of nuns' "vocation description" - so to speak - to be a day care center.

The Bishop's remark was humorous.

That is TOO MUCH, really. Almost all nuns already work SO hard. They can't easily take on that additional burden.

But they could maybe offer classes for young teenagers, for example, whose parents - if able to afford it - might be able to pay something
and add to the convent's finances. Then the girls would have the lovely experience of interacting with
Nuns and learn not JUST the skills, but actually copy their demeanor and behavior. Teenagers do mimic a lot ; terribly,
most of the only examples available today are so disastrous that teenage girls have no one of good spiritual stature as well as
a nice disposition and humble demeanor to model their behavior and attitudes on.
Secular teachers I am sure are almost scary these days. Plus their values...

Just a thought !

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Re: Which heretics ?

Post by m. Evfrosinia »

I don't believe that any of the former Old Believers among the Optina monks were particularly well known. Some of them acted as missionaries to Old Believers, some of them were just simple monks.
Quite a few people were very skeptical and very much against St. John of Kronstadt during his lifetime. Many people just didn't believe him; they thought he was a phony, and that the stories of miracles was just hysteria. Several hierarchs and a lot of the clergy felt that his practices were not really Orthodox, and didn't trust him. Leskov wrote a few really nasty pieces against him. The biography "St. John of Kronstadt- A Prodigal Saint" goes into this.
As far as I remember, Leskov himself was never an Old Believer.

Lesna was founded as a missionary monastery and was always involved in education. We have no opportunity to open a school now, but we have had young women and girls in their late teens stay here for up to a year, and most of the time it was a very positive experience. Most of them keep in touch with us and remember their time in Lesna as one of the happiest times of their lives. I feel it's important for young people to spend some time in a monastery and live a very intense Orthodox life for at least a while. It strengthens them and gives them something to fall back on for the rest of their lives.

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