Fasting = one meal per day?

The practice of living the life in Christ: fasting, vigil lamps, head-coverings, family life, icon corners, and other forms of Orthopraxy. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
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jgress
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Re: Fasting = one meal per day?

Post by jgress »

By "legalistic" I don't just mean that Jews and Muslims take rules seriously. Orthodox also take rules seriously. The difference is that in the former, the rules are ends in themselves, while in Orthodoxy, the rules are not ends but only means to achieve repentance. There's no point to keeping the "ninth fast" if it leads to pride rather than humility, for example. That's why you shouldn't do it just because the written rules say so, but only under obedience to a spiritual father, because then you are not relying on yourself but on God, who guides you through your spiritual father. If your spiritual father gives you a laxer or stricter rule, don't be proud and self-willed but do what he says. Maria posted a good homily by St Philaret, who explained that some saints fasted much more strictly than the rules, but they did so in humility so it helped them achieve salvation. Many of us are weak and can't even fast as strictly as the written rules allow, but provided we humbly accept the rules we are given we can hope to be saved.

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Re: Fasting = one meal per day?

Post by jgress »

Jean-Serge is right that shellfish are forbidden on "dry days", according to good authorities like St Nicodemus and Balsamon. Really, the only things allowed are bread and water (according to St Nicodemus); everything else commonly called "fasting" (nistisimo), even vegetables and legumes, are only allowed on "oil" days. Not many observe that restriction, though; for instance, eating shellfish is customary on Clean Monday in much of Greece. Even without shellfish, people who fast from oil generally try to keep a varied diet with different kinds of vegetables and fruits. Just sticking to bread and water for days at a time is bad for most people's health, unless they are sustained by Grace, and for that you need humility.

tradbulwark
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Re: Fasting = one meal per day?

Post by tradbulwark »

Jean-Serge wrote:

Additionally, shrimp is not necessarily a lenten food since it is killed animal and great lent is about going back to the state of paradise when no animals were eaten. Balsamon and Saint Nikodemos both rejected such consumption.

Would this extend to plants that are killed to be eaten, like onions and other roots/bulbs people eat?

These roots were not eaten (not permissible) in the Garden.

jgress
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Re: Fasting = one meal per day?

Post by jgress »

tradbulwark wrote:
Jean-Serge wrote:

Additionally, shrimp is not necessarily a lenten food since it is killed animal and great lent is about going back to the state of paradise when no animals were eaten. Balsamon and Saint Nikodemos both rejected such consumption.

Would this extend to plants that are killed to be eaten, like onions and other roots/bulbs people eat?

These roots were not eaten (not permissible) in the Garden.

Is that true? I haven't heard that before, though it makes some sense: Adam and Eve would be "fruitarians" and didn't kill any living thing for their food, not even plants (I believe the Jainists have a similar philosophy). But as I said, the strict understanding of xerophagy is that it means bread and water, which I suppose also is not what they ate in Paradise. The point is more that bread and water is the plainest, most basic kind of food.

There seem to be various justifications for our fasting practices and I wouldn't insist too strongly on each one. E.g. one common justification for eating shellfish during Lent is that invertebrate animals don't have red blood, and red blood is held to raise the passions. But if that's the case, why do we find rules in some sources that forbid shellfish on certain days? I would advise just following the local custom of your church. There is general agreement that during fasts all vertebrate animals and their products are forbidden (well, fish roe seems to be allowed on days when fish is forbidden, but never mind that for the moment); the disagreements are relatively marginal.

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Jean-Serge
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Re: Fasting = one meal per day?

Post by Jean-Serge »

jgress wrote:

I would advise just following the local custom of your church.

Even in a same parish, you can find different customs because people come from different backgrounds. So, even worse at the level of a church. Not to talk about some parishes where the spirit is quite lax and you could end up eating roast chicken on Friday simply following the practice of the parish. Well, this was more, I guess, in the 50s and 60s in GOA. Anyway it is always good to know the standards (that is why the fact that fasting is to last until 3 PM should be remembered) and compare them with practice. It helps a lot.

By the way, that is how I discovered there was something rotten in world orthodoxy. I read the canons by curiosity (because I found them) saw many prohibitions of common prayers with heretics whereas this was happening again and again.

To come back to the question of fasting until ninth hour, I discover that Thomas of Aquin also addressed the question in the Summa Theologica refuting the objections against fasting until ninth. A local orthodox council in Chalons (current France) seems to also have ratified this practice. It is Summa theologica, Question 147 articles 6 and 7. So, it was really a universal practice!

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.SS_Q147_A7.html

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Maria
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Re: Fasting = one meal per day?

Post by Maria »

Interesting quote from Thomas Aquinas!

I have a book that dates back to the 1870s. It discusses the fast and the changes made after Vatican I where the fast was relaxed for Catholics especially in the USA, so it appears that the Black Fast (or universal fast) was kept in the Roman Catholic Church until quite recently.

The Greek Orthodox Church in the USA (GOARCH) until just recently used to allow chicken to be served on Palm Sunday with the excuse that Holy Week was not part of Great Lent. Archbishop Sypridon who was replaced by Archbishop Demetrios restored the fast in the late 1990s. Spyridon's leadership was opposed by the Orthodox Christian Laity who appealed to the EP.

Anyway, back on topic.

There are several article by Dr. Mercola extolling the practice of intermittent fasting during the day until the ninth hour (3:00 PM). He says that it is even beneficial for hypoglycemics and could help prevent diabetes, so fasting with only one meal per day is actually very healthy.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... ealth.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... evity.aspx

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

jgress
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Re: Fasting = one meal per day?

Post by jgress »

Jean-Serge wrote:
jgress wrote:

I would advise just following the local custom of your church.

Even in a same parish, you can find different customs because people come from different backgrounds. So, even worse at the level of a church. Not to talk about some parishes where the spirit is quite lax and you could end up eating roast chicken on Friday simply following the practice of the parish. Well, this was more, I guess, in the 50s and 60s in GOA. Anyway it is always good to know the standards (that is why the fact that fasting is to last until 3 PM should be remembered) and compare them with practice. It helps a lot.

By the way, that is how I discovered there was something rotten in world orthodoxy. I read the canons by curiosity (because I found them) saw many prohibitions of common prayers with heretics whereas this was happening again and again.

To come back to the question of fasting until ninth hour, I discover that Thomas of Aquin also addressed the question in the Summa Theologica refuting the objections against fasting until ninth. A local orthodox council in Chalons (current France) seems to also have ratified this practice. It is Summa theologica, Question 147 articles 6 and 7. So, it was really a universal practice!

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.SS_Q147_A7.html

Well, it seems like the worst abuses occur in World Orthodox churches, so as long as you're going to a True Orthodox church, you will be surrounded by people who keep the fast more strictly than otherwise. So the issue is not whether or not to eat chicken on Friday, but more whether to fast entirely until the 9th hour, or if some more laxity is customary. It's good to be aware of the strict standards that used to be followed, but I really do think there is another danger of people trying to impose such strictness on themselves without proper guidance. That kind of individualistic approach is a symptom of pride.

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