Orthodox Practices Origin

[sojourner_tim]

Hello,

I was wondering if some of you kind people could help me with some information about the GOC. I used to go there when I was little and my father still goes. I stopped going when I was about 16 (i'm 24 now) because I started to read my bible a lot more and what I saw in my church did not seem to follow the biblical model for the Church that I read in Acts and the rest of the NT. Now that I'm older I'm interested in where the GOC gets it's practices (for example the liturgy and the priesthood) from biblically. From what I've read so far they say it comes handed down from church fathers. The only writing I have read so far is from Justin Martyr in his First Apology chapters LXV and LXVI. In what is described it seems Justin Martyr and his fellowship followed the example laid out in acts 2:42. Any explanation would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tim

[Jean-Serge]

You are committing a classical protestant mistake : thinking that the Bible is the only source of authority, which the Bible itself does not say... The beginning of the church begins with the Pentecoste and not the writing of the Bible... Orthodoxy is based on Tradition, but the Bible is only one part of the Tradition that is also oral... and non written.

[sojourner_tim]

Hello Jean,

I understand what you are saying but my problem is this: If we rely on tradition that is not supported directly by the bible, it is very easy for false practices to be introduced into our beliefs. I believe that this is part of what Col 2:8 is warning against. Some of these practices can be just mere distractions while others can be huge stumbling blocks to growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus. How do we know that the traditions passed down are truly accurate to how the early church of Acts worshipped? As evidenced by the New Testament Letters, we see that false doctrine was already becoming an issue even in the early church. This is why Paul and the rest of the writers wrote to correct them in many of the New Testament letters and had them circulated among the churches. They needed correction and direction and a written document was the best way to make sure that correct doctrine would be followed and not distorted. The same is true today.

In regards to my original post, is passed down oral tradition the main or only evidence for the priesthood and liturgy that is seen in the GOC?

Thank You for your response,

Tim

[joasia]

sojourner_tim,

There is also the Seven Ecumenical Councils. The Holy Fathers, with the blessing of the Holy Spirit set to letter, the oral traditons. The Holy Bible wasn't compiled until the First and Second Ecumenical Councils in the 4th century. What they established as the true worship of the Holy Trinity was oral. But, there were existing writings.

There is much documentations of life and living in the Christian faith back then and the plethora of writings of saints and their lives.

You have to read everything and put everything together, to get the whole picture.

And false doctrine is in our times too. It's called Ecumenism. The false kind. And these bishops, especially Pat. Bartholowmew, teach the biggest lies.

If you want to talk about comparing the ways of the first centuries to now, then the Greek New Calendar group is the perfect example.

1) Head-covering for women is almost nil: old grannies mostly(and not many - they don't want to ruin their coiffure).
2) Women wearing pants is frequent. Not to mention, no-sleeve tops.
3) Fasting....who fasts?
4) Inter-religious marriages(one is not Orthodox) - Would you see that with the Apostles?
5) Attendance every Sunday and Holy Feast...NOT.
6) Teachings that all religions are equal and worship the same God.

And much more. Maybe somebody else can fill in the blanks.

In regards to my original post, is passed down oral tradition the main or only evidence for the priesthood and liturgy that is seen in the GOC?

Not sure if you mean the Greek Orthodox Church or the Genuine Orthodox Church. Are you talking about Old or New Calendar?

If you are asking if the Orthodox priesthood and liturgy in the Old Calendar Greek Church is only from an oral tradition, then no.

There is the Seven Ecumenical Councils and the Rudder. But, I guess you can say that it was written down, due to oral tradition.

I think one of the priests here should step in.

But, please do realize that we are approaching the Great Lent and the priests may be more occupied in prayer and by next Monday, many people will stop posting here, during the Great Lent.

God bless,

Joanna

[Pravoslavnik]

Tim,

Code: Select all

 The Ekklesia, or Church, of the Eastern Mediterranean world in the first century was surely inspired and nurtured by the Holy Spirit since the first Pentecost.  If we do not believe [i]that[/i] what can we believe about the faith?  St. Paul admonished Timothy to hold fast to the [i]traditions [/i]of the Church more than two centuries before the Bible was formally canonized by the Church.  The canonical epistles speak of the "presbyters" and bishops of the Church, and St. Paul alludes to the eucharist in his epistles dating to about 46 A.D.  If I am not mistaken, the oldest eucharistic liturgy was that of St. James, the brother of the Lord, and first bishop of the Church in Jerusalem.  The Roman Catholics still use the Greek "Kyrie Eleisson" in their ancient liturgy, and many of the early bishops of Rome, or "Popes" were Greeks.  There are direct parallels between the ancient liturgies of the Church in the Latin West and in the Hellenic East, including the basic form of the canon of the liturgy (or "mass.")

  Sadly, Martin Luther and his Protestant colleagues--John Calvin, Jan Hus, etc.--decided through pride and prelest (spiritual delusion) to reject the sacred traditions of the Church, even the eucharist!  They assumed that they knew better than the Holy Apostles-- through a highly [i]selective[/i] reading of the Church scriptures-- what Christ God intended for his Church.  They also rejected a belief in the holy saints of God!  What priceless spiritual treasures were cast aside by the Protestants through this foolish pride.

It is not without reason that the Holy Fathers have long admonished us that we cannot progress in the spiritual life without acquiring humility, and also reverence and obedience for the praxis and wonderful mysteries of the Holy Church! May Christ God enlighten you on this matter, and lead you from the barren wasteland of Protestant text analysis into His kingdom upon earth, the Orthodox Church....

[sojourner_tim]

Hello Joanna,

Thank you for your response. I just kind of skimmed over what the 7 councils addressed and from an overview I don't see anything I don't agree with. As you said the decision on the NT cannon came from there. I do not however know much about writings of how church was conducted back then other than the bible do you know of any specific place in those councils i could read about that or anywhere else for that matter? if not that is ok. I'm just curious. In regards to the new calender greeks:

1. I don't believe that head covering is necessary. I believe what Paul was referring to in 1 Cor was a cultural issue in that at that time the women in corinth who went around with uncovered heads were prostitutes and so he did not want the women in the church to disgrace themselves. I think the application today would be that if there is a similar cultural situation, for example if where you live head covering is the norm and if a woman does not do that then she is a prostitue, then as believers we should not go against that cultural standard because it would ruin our witness for Christ.

2. I do not see pants being a problem in a church setting in my culture because it would not stumble anyone. I believe women do need to be very careful not to tempt their brothers in christ of course and once again part of that is cultural and similar to #1. If it is going to ruin your witness don't do it.

3. i agree with you fasting is a necessary part of the christian life

4. i don't see a problem with any two people marrying as long as both of them are true believers in Christ.

5. I also agree that too many people treat church as if it is not important. We should make every effort to be a part of our local church every sunday or whatever day we choose to worship. We should never forsake the assembling of one another (hebrews)

6.I also believe that is hogwash. there is only one way to the father and that is through Jesus Christ His Son.

By GOC I meant Greek Orthodox Church, sorry for the confusion.

I did not see any reference to priesthood or liturgy in my brief overlooking of those coucils. Seemed to be mostly about combating false doctrines and stuff. Maybe you or someone else could point me to specific parts of it.

Thank you again for helping me

Tim

[sojourner_tim]

Pravoslavnik,

I agree with you that the church of the first century was inspired and nurtured by the holy spirit. What i was trying to say (and i'm sorry if i was not clear) was that although they were being inspired by the holy spirit false doctrine was still finding its way into the church and that is why the writers of the NT wrote many of their letters, to correct those false doctrines and teachers.

Aren't Presbyters just teachers or elders or overseers in the church? We still have those today in the church. I do not reject the eucharist if what you mean by eucharist is communion. Communion was ordained by Jesus and should never be ignored.

Maybe we both believe more similar things than we think. I believe your average church service should include: reading of the scriptures and teaching on them, prayer, worship through music, fellowship, and communion. Maybe the differences between your "liturgy" and my "service" are more just about style than substance.

I don't consider myself a protestant, lutheran, calvinist etc. As Paul said, "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world" Gal 6:14. I boast not in men, theologies, or churches but in Christ alone. I believe being in Christ is being in the Promised Land not a barren wasteland.

May I ask you what do you believe leads one to salvation? I believe that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead then you will be saved, that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works lest anyone should boast. Do you agree because if you do then it leads me once again to believe that maybe our differences are more about style and culture than substance really. As long as we both believe in the one true God and are allowing God to use us to bring people to Christ then amen praise God. Do you all agree?

Tim