Orthodox Practices Origin

The practice of living the life in Christ: fasting, vigil lamps, head-coverings, family life, icon corners, and other forms of Orthopraxy. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
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Pravoslavnik
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Post by Pravoslavnik »

Tim writes: "The true church does still exist but it is not about a governing body. It is about the body of christ, believers of the Gospel, coming together and worshiping him."

Tim,

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How do you presume to know what the true Church is?  Christ said that it would be established by the Apostles themselves, and would endure until His return, hence it cannot be the Protestant sects that came into existence 1,600 years after the first Pentecost in Jerusalem.  (e.g., "Whatsover ye shall bind on earth shall be bound, etc.") The true Church would, by definition from scripture itself, have to be a Church established by the Apostles--ergo, either the Orthodox or Roman Catholic Churches (of Apostolic succession.)  Furthermore, if you insist on using only scripture to invent your concept of the Church--like Martin Luther and John Calvin-- how do you explain Christ's very "hard" saying to His Apostle's that "unless a man (literally) eats my Body and drinks my Blood there is no life in him?"  That one saying alone invalidates all of the Protestant non-eucharistic "churches" invented "sola scriptura" during the Reformation.  And where are the miracle working saints in these invented "churches?"  Did not Christ say that the true Christians after Him would work miracles and accomplish "greater works than these?"  The Protestants and "Pentecostal" Protestants have selectively overlooked all of the scriptures that invalidate their own distorted inventions of "church" organizations.  They must acquire the humility to repent of these errors and be properly educated and baptized into the "one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," the Orthodox Church.
sojourner_tim
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Post by sojourner_tim »

Joanna,

Because it's a protestant question. The Orthodox don't ask that question. We know that it's a life-long process. And even the Orthodox saints never stated that they were saved.

I disagree. It's a biblical question. In fact, it's the most important question to ask regarding the bible. Do a word search on the word saved.

But, there is a key point...repentence. It is the essencial spiritual condition of the soul; to move from self-centeredness to God-centeredness. On the death bed, an Orthodox person, even a saint, still does not know if his/her repentence in life, was enough. That is where Christ's judgement comes in and makes the final evaluation. Because to have such confidence, would mean pride and God doesn't accept pride.

I think it's more prideful to think that our works somehow justify us before God in light of all the scriptures that say otherwise. Please don't think I believe that you can pray a prayer once in your life and then go do whatever you want. Accepting Jesus as your savior is a lifelong commitment. The scriptures show time and again that we need to finish the race, that we need to last till the end, etc. If you truly are saved though, you have the Holy Spirit to guide you to the finish line. And quite honestly I can't understand why anyone would ever want to stop running. It's an amazing journey and it's so much better than anything this evil world could offer me. If you truly believe in Jesus your life will change. The second he saved me He started changing my life. Things I once took great pleasure in became disgusting to me. For the rest of my life I will continue to grow closer to Him and more like Him if I let Him. Only one work can justify us though and that is the work Jesus completed on the cross.

But, protestants believe that they believe in Jesus Christ and they are saved. It's a done deal, right? So, no need for repentence. That is the biggest mis-interpretation of Christ's teachings.

Repentance is indeed a key part of the Christian life. Christ died once for all for our sins and when you repent and believe in Him and are saved, you don't need to keep repenting of your sins every day to keep your salvation. Once you are a believer if you have unrepented sin in your life, it destroys your fellowship with God. We must repent so that that fellowship is restored and we can continue to grow in Him.

sojourner_tim
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Post by sojourner_tim »

How do you presume to know what the true Church is? Christ said that it would be established by the Apostles themselves, and would endure until His return, hence it cannot be the Protestant sects that came into existence 1,600 years after the first Pentecost in Jerusalem. (e.g., "Whatsover ye shall bind on earth shall be bound, etc.")

I do not presume at all, I know what the bible says the church is. You misunderstood what I said. The church is not about a denomination biblically. Where in the bible does it say you must go to an "orthodox church"? Where are the believers in the NT ever called Orthodox? In the bible, people would get saved and then go to the place where all the believers in the city they were in congregated together. If you became a believer in Colossae, you would naturally go to the Colossian church. What made it a church was what the people who assembled together believed. What differentiated these people from other assemblies of the day was what they believed not what they called it. Therefore there are, have been, and always will be believers who assemble together to worship Jesus just as He said.

G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

how do you explain Christ's very "hard" saying to His Apostle's that "unless a man (literally) eats my Body and drinks my Blood there is no life in him?" That one saying alone invalidates all of the Protestant non-eucharistic "churches" invented "sola scriptura" during the Reformation.

Although the bible can and should be taken literally most of the time, it does use different figures of speech. I've heard there are over 200 different kinds I believe from Dr. Chuck Missler.

And where are the miracle working saints in these invented "churches?" Did not Christ say that the true Christians after Him would work miracles and accomplish "greater works than these?"

All around me. I've seen miracles in my life, others lifes, etc. People have been healed, set free from addictions, gone from smoking themselves pretty much retarded to becoming great bible teachers, from being certifiably insane to great men of God, etc.

They must acquire the humility to repent of these errors and be properly educated and baptized into the "one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," the Orthodox Church.

We must all have the humility to allow God to change our lives however He wants. We must be willing to drop anything at all if it does not line up with the Word of God. If I believed the Orthodox Church was right on anything we have talked about and it could be proven biblically, I would change my line of thinking to line up correctly with the Word.

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GOCTheophan
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Post by GOCTheophan »

sojourner_tim wrote:

I think it's more prideful to think that our works somehow justify us before God in light of all the scriptures that say otherwise.

Tim,

The fact that you can write that we think our works can justify us shows that you were never a member of any type of Orthodox Church. I do not see what you thought you were going to achieve through lying.

We believe that we are saved by Grace through Faith. However Grace does not destory human freedom, rather it establishes it. The ascetic struggles of the Orthodox are not some attempt to "earn" the Kingdom of Heaven, rather they are in order to purify the heart that Grace may remain there and transform it.

Grace is God Himself and therefore ineffable. Orthodox Christians are part-takers of the Divine Nature.

Theophan.

sojourner_tim
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Post by sojourner_tim »

The fact that you can write that we think our works can justify us shows that you were never a member of any type of Orthodox Church. I do not see what you thought you were going to achieve through lying.

We believe that we are saved by Grace through Faith. However Grace does not destory human freedom, rather it establishes it. The ascetic struggles of the Orthodox are not some attempt to "earn" the Kingdom of Heaven, rather they are in order to purify the heart that Grace may remain there and transform it.

Grace is God Himself and therefore ineffable. Orthodox Christians are part-takers of the Divine Nature.

Maybe i'm still misunderstanding so help me understand if i'm wrong but if you have to do something, anything so that grace will remain with you then doesn't that mean you are essentially working for your salvation? To me, struggling through things so we may do what is right and serving God with our lives is a natural outpouring in response to the love Jesus showed on the cross.

This is one other reason I thought works were involved in receiving salvation, speaking in regards to communion:

This awesome sacrifice has been entrusted to the Church to be re-enacted and given to the faithful for the nourishment of their faith and the forgiveness of their sins in remembrance of the Lord. http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/artic ... le7063.asp

It just seems like it is saying that through partaking in communion we somehow receive forgiveness for our sins. Now earlier on they seem to say that salvation is through grace by faith so i don't know maybe you can elaborate on this.

Also, earlier from Joasia:

I can say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God a million times in a day and I still won’t feel that I am safe and saved. Even if I lose my job or my family, because I refuse to reject my belief, for their sake, I cannot assume that I am saved. I have the faith. I really do. But, I think that it is human pride to assume that one is saved because he/she believes and that it’s a sealed deal. Even the holy fathers considered themselves to be bigger sinners amongst others and they lamented about their salvation. You really should read the lives of the saints.

It seemed to me that she was saying in response to me saying that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works, lest anyone should boast that faith alone is not enough.

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

Tim,

You really are confused.

If you truly are saved though, you have the Holy Spirit to guide you to the finish line.

There you go again. Talking like a person is saved now.

Repentance is indeed a key part of the Christian life. Christ died once for all for our sins and when you repent and believe in Him and are saved, you don't need to keep repenting of your sins every day to keep your salvation. Once you are a believer if you have unrepented sin in your life, it destroys your fellowship with God. We must repent so that that fellowship is restored and we can continue to grow in Him.

You don't need to keep repenting? So a person doesn't have sins anymore, after they're "saved"? As I told you, even the saints continued to repent to their last day. But, I see that you might not believe in saints, otherwise, this point would be quite clear.

It seemed to me that she was saying in response to me saying that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works, lest anyone should boast that faith alone is not enough.

I wasn't saying that. I was saying that just because a person believes in Jesus Christ and even changes his lifestyle, he is not, in the Orthodox doctrines, considered "saved". No matter how much faith I have, I know that I am not guarantteed a place in God's Kingdom. It's a lifelong struggle of repentence which will only be weighed when I die and face my personal judgement.

And there are works such as prayer and fasting that is required to be able to develop the virtues, such as dispassion and uniting one's will with God's. They are not the means, but an exercise for the soul; along with other works. And the works of humility, love, compassion and other works of the soul. But, these are the works that are evaluated by God, not man.

But, a person can fast and pray and not develop an inch. It's depends on the works of the soul. Like the example, in the Holy Bible, of the talents. Each man multiplied his talent at a different rate. But, it was only the Master(Christ) that evaluated the effort and development of each man.

It's good that you have changed your ways, since you came to believe in Christ, but you cannot assume that you are saved. Nobody can know for sure until Christ pronounces His judgement when we die and face our 40 days of judgement.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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TomS
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Post by TomS »

joasia wrote:

Tim,

You really are confused.

LMAO! :roll:

Why don't you just make this your signature line? !

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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."

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