Immaculate Conception dogma

This is a safe harbor for inquirers and catechumen to ask questions and share their journey into Holy Orthodoxy. Please be kind to our newcomers and warmly welcome them. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.

Moderator: Maria

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8148
Joined: Sat 12 June 2004 12:39 am
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Maria » Sat 17 March 2018 11:53 pm

Cyprian wrote:
Maria wrote:If you have read The Dialogues of Saint Catherine of Siena, then you most likely remember the warning from Mary and Her Son, Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, who both warned Catherine that the devil can appear as an Angel of Light or even as Mary or the Lord Jesus. However, since the Devil is a shapeshifter, he cannot maintain that fraud for any length of time. Furthermore, the person(s) receiving that fraudulent vision will become confused or proud as the deceitful Devil will also tempt.


How is it that you know for certain that it was the Lord Jesus Christ and His all-pure Mother who were dialoguing with Catherine of Siena?


I am certainly not infallible, no human is, except Jesus Christ, Who is perfect Man and perfect God united in One Person, Christ. Instead, it is my private opinion that Our Lord and the Virgin Mary were guiding Catherine.

Note that I was a Dominican Tertiary for many years, and shortly before becoming Orthodox, I had discovered that during the Middle Ages, one priory of Dominican Priests had gone to Georgia and another to Constantnople to learn the truth about the Great Schism of 1054 and how to resolve it. Both priories converted to Holy Orthodoxy, but the monks being poor were given permission by the Orthodox Church to keep their white monastic garment and were then known as the White Monks. The Georgian White Monks had a heavy influence on St. Seraphim of Sarov, who also wore a white monastic garment. Incidentally, St. Seraphim, like Dominic de Guzman, the founder of the Dominicans, were seen to have a Holy Light coming forth from their bodies. It was reading and rereading the lives of both men that convinced me of the truth of Holy Orthodoxy.

It was through the careful reading and rereading of The Dialogue of St. Catherine that I was able to discern through the Holy Spirit that it was best to leave Roman Catholicism and convert to Holy Orthodoxy. Bear in mind that Roman Catholic priests were calling me a heretic and an apostate for even considering leaving Rome and heading East. I was forbidden to teach catechism, was shunned by many of my Catholic friends, and was very torn, so I prayed, studied, read the New Testament daily, and struggled for three years before finding great peace of soul in Holy Orthodoxy.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

User avatar
Cyprian
Sr Member
Posts: 684
Joined: Sat 12 November 2005 11:40 am
Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: near Seattle, WA
Contact:

Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Cyprian » Tue 20 March 2018 2:26 am

Fr. Seraphim Rose thought she was in delusion, but you do accept that Catherine of Siena has never been recognized as an Orthodox saint, right? I am not sure why you and your husband refer to her as "Saint" Catherine.

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8148
Joined: Sat 12 June 2004 12:39 am
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Maria » Tue 20 March 2018 2:32 am

Cyprian wrote:Fr. Seraphim Rose thought she was in delusion, but you do accept that Catherine of Siena has never been recognized as an Orthodox saint, right? I am not sure why you and your husband refer to her as "Saint" Catherine.


Do you have a quote from Fr. Seraphim Rose concerning this?

My husband and I were formerly Roman Catholics. We were both involved as Dominican Tertiaries.
A Dominican priest left the Roman Catholic Church and joined the Orthodox Church in the 20th century.
He influenced our decision to go Orthodox when he shared about the two priories of Dominicans
which left the Dominican Order and converted to Holy Orthodoxy. One was in Georgia and the
other in Constantinople. Other Dominican priests also confirmed this and said it was mentioned in
the Dominican History. As it was quite an embarrassment for them, they had nothing to add, and
refused to discuss this further.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

User avatar
Cyprian
Sr Member
Posts: 684
Joined: Sat 12 November 2005 11:40 am
Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: near Seattle, WA
Contact:

Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Cyprian » Tue 20 March 2018 3:07 am

That's a nice story Maria, but you did not really answer the question. Do you acknowledge that the Orthodox Church has never recognized Catherine of Siena as a saint? Do you pray to her?


Fr. Seraphim Rose: Orthodox Survival Course

"Some of these sectarians were called the Brethren of the Free Spirit, and they flourished from the eleventh century onward with a doctrine that God is all that is; every created thing is divine, that a new age of the Holy Spirit is coming, and when Joachim of Flores already proclaimed his teaching, they followed his teaching that each person has the Holy Spirit and is himself divine and, therefore, he can commit sin and still be pure. There is a certain Sister Catherine in the fourteenth century who had an ecstatic experience and then proclaimed: "Rejoice with me, for I have become God."18 This is not so far away again from Francis of Assisi."

[footnote]:

18. Catherine of Siena: The Dialogue, transl. & intr. by Suzanne Noffke, O.P., Paulist Press, 1980, pp. 25-26. Catherine
dictated The Dialogue during a 5-day ecstatic experience, referring to herself in the third person or as "the soul": "A soul
rises up...she seeks to pursue truth and clothe herself in it. But there is no way she can so savor and be enlightened by this truth as in continual humble prayer, grounded in the knowledge of herself and of God. For by such prayer the soul is united with God, following in the footsteps of Christ crucified, and through desire and affection and the union of love he makes of her another himself. So Christ seems to have meant when he said, 'If you will love me and keep my word, I will show myself to you, and you will be one thing with me and I with you.' (John 14:21-23) And we find similar words in other places from which we can see it is the truth that by love's affection the soul becomes another himself. To make this clearer still, I remember having heard from a certain servant of God [Catherine referring to herself] that, when she was at prayer, lifted high in spirit, God would not hide from her mind's eye his love for his servants. No, he would reveal it, saying among other things, 'Open your mind's eye and look within me, and you will see the dignity and beauty of my reasoning creature [the human person]. But beyond the beauty I have given the soul by creating her in my image and likeness, look at those who are clothed in the wedding garment of charity, adorned with many true virtues: They are united with me through love. So I say, if you should ask me who they are, I would answer,' said the gentle loving Word, 'that they are another me; for they have lost and drowned their own will and have clothed themselves and united themselves and conformed themselves with mine.' It is true, then, that the soul is united to God through love's affection." p. 57: "The fire within that soul blazed higher and she was beside herself as if drunk, at once gloriously happy and grief-stricken. She was happy in her union with God, wholly submerged in his mercy and savoring his vast goodness.... For her union with God was more intimate than was the union between her soul and her body." p. 85: "You will all be made like him in joy and gladness;... your whole bodies will be made like the body of the Word my Son. You will live in him as you live in me, for he is one with me." Also p. 295 [God speaking to her]: "That soul was so perfectly united with me that her body was lifted up from the earth, because in this unitive state I am telling you about, the union of the soul with me through the impulse of love is more perfect than her union with her body."

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8148
Joined: Sat 12 June 2004 12:39 am
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Maria » Tue 20 March 2018 3:57 am

Cyprian wrote:That's a nice story Maria, but you did not really answer the question. Do you acknowledge that the Orthodox Church has never recognized Catherine of Siena as a saint? Do you pray to her?


We do not pray to her as she is not recognized as a saint.

However, neither do we recognize Fr. Seraphim Rose as a saint.


WARNING:
Be careful with translations done by the New Vatican II Church. The translation that was reprinted by TAN books is a much older translation.

The translation done in 1980 is perverted and heretical. That is why TAN books reprinted the older translation and it is still available.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

User avatar
Barbara
Protoposter
Posts: 3541
Joined: Sat 29 September 2012 10:03 pm

Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Barbara » Tue 20 March 2018 4:03 am

neither do we recognize Fr. Seraphim Rose as a saint


Amen !!!

Just an aside. Go back to your good discussion, both of you.

About TAN books, that acronym was from the initials of Thomas A Nelson, the publisher. There is probably some hidden reason why TAN had to go out of business. I think I recall that TAN was forced to declare bankruptcy. Perhaps there was more to the story than just financial insolvency, such as persecution from Vatican II presses which were out to replace all the older, nicer books with phony imitations such as Maria mentioned.

User avatar
Cyprian
Sr Member
Posts: 684
Joined: Sat 12 November 2005 11:40 am
Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: near Seattle, WA
Contact:

Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Postby Cyprian » Tue 20 March 2018 4:11 am

True, Fr. Seraphim of blessed memory has not been glorified. But there is no reason why Orthodox cannot pray to Fr. Seraphim, if they desire. Orthodox Christians have no reason to pray to Catherine of Siena.

Barbara, I do not know who poisoned your mind towards the memory of Fr. Seraphim Rose, but it is disappointing for me to see. Did you ever know him or meet him? All the gossip about him and junk food is inappropriate and unbecoming.


Return to “Inquiring into Orthodoxy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests