Immaculate Conception dogma

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Extranjero
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Immaculate Conception dogma

Post by Extranjero »

Hello. This is my first post here. I am a Roman Catholic very interested in the Orthodox Tradition. Also I am attending as guest to an Orthodox Church. Meanwhile I try to study all I can find about it. Just now I am reading the Kallistos Ware's book "Orthodox Church".

My interest in the Orthodox comes first of all from the sacred enviroment I perceive in the church and its liturgy. I do not find it in the Catholic mass today...

Well, that was as a short introduce my self. Now my question:

I am reading about Immaculate Conception dogma, and I found that some orthodox practicioners and priest has a clear position against it, but other does not seem to be so stricts.

For example there is an article of Lev Gillet where he makes a review of different positions along the time, and finally he conclude that even if not a orthodox dogma, is not really imcompatible whith this tradition.

I dont know what to think, but as Immaculate Conception is not a mere theoretical topic, because it is expressed in some prays and devotions, It has an personal importance in my life.

Can you tell me if there is a patristic source which make clear this? and do some of you agree with the friendly position of Lev Gillet about it? (Friendly position means here: althought is not an Orthodox dogma, as a personal belief is not an heresy).

d9popov
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Post by d9popov »

Dear Extranjero,
Welcome. Kallistos Timothy Ware has some useful things to say about the Trinity, Christology, essence, energy, and pneumatology, but he is way off on ecumenism. Much of the discussion online about Orthodoxy and the "Immaculate Conception" claim is invalid, because it makes the invalid assumption that "original sin" has an agreed definition. We cannot have a valid discussion about the absence of original sin if the understandings of original sin are all over the map. In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, we speak of the ancestral sin, forefather's sin, the fall of Adam, etc. Augustine of Hippo and other Latin writers added a legalistic interpretation of "inherited guilt" that is sometimes foreign to what the Orthodox saints wrote. Unfortunately, today, Orthodox writers have not come to complete agreement on these issues and there are polemics that sometimes exaggerate differences. All Orthodox agree that "original sin" has sometimes been given overly-legalistic interpretations in the West. These issues are covered partially in Saint John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco's book on the veneration of the Birth-Giver of God (Google it for the full text online) and in John Romanides's somewhat-controversial book Ancestral Sin. Even if those discussions are not complete or perfect, they will give you an introduction to Eastern discussions of these complicated issues. Romanides has many quotations and citations that can be checked (and corrected if necessary). Ware is correct in saying that in the Church, not only are the answers different from the West, THE VERY WORDING OF THE QUESTIONS HAS TO BE DIFFERENT. As always, the goal should be to follow the Orthodox patristic consensus without later Latin and Protestant perversions of the ancient consensus.
In Christ,
d9popov

Extranjero
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Post by Extranjero »

Thank you dear d9popov. I am going to look for those sources you mentioned.

By the way, "ecumenism" is a big word which involves many senses. And among those senses there some things I do not accept. My worry was refered just to the Immaculate Conception.

As I see, if we focus in the Orthodox liturgy and devotions we can find very similar words adressed to Holy Mary, like "all pure" and others. This is good for me.

The conflict seem to start whith the dogmatic declaration. Because -like you pointed- it was expressed in the Catholic words and conceptions, and so it carried the concept of original sin. For worse the dogma was declared absolute, and condemns in advance who does not accept it.

I can understand the reaction of orthodoxian people...

Thank you again.

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Maria
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

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Extranjero wrote:

Hello. This is my first post here. I am a Roman Catholic very interested in the Orthodox Tradition. Also I am attending as guest to an Orthodox Church. Meanwhile I try to study all I can find about it. Just now I am reading the Kallistos Ware's book "Orthodox Church".

My interest in the Orthodox comes first of all from the sacred enviroment I perceive in the church and its liturgy. I do not find it in the Catholic mass today...

Welcome to E Cafe. I am also a convert from Roman Catholicism to Holy Orthodoxy.

Extranjero wrote:

Well, that was as a short introduce my self. Now my question:

I am reading about Immaculate Conception dogma, and I found that some orthodox practicioners and priest has a clear position against it, but other does not seem to be so stricts.

For example there is an article of Lev Gillet where he makes a review of different positions along the time, and finally he conclude that even if not a orthodox dogma, is not really imcompatible whith this tradition.

Yes, many of the priests I encountered in World Orthodoxy did not have a clear position against the Immaculate Conception. They had the same position as Met. Kallistos Ware (a convert from Anglicism) of the World Orthodox Greek Patriarch. They all taught that the Immaculate Conception was not a heretical belief and was not incompatible with Orthodoxy. In fact, Fr. Silouan of Mt. Athos who was glorified by the OCA taught the same thing.

Fr. Lev Gillet was previously a Roman Catholic before he joined Orthodox Christianity.

Extranjero wrote:

I dont know what to think, but as Immaculate Conception is not a mere theoretical topic, because it is expressed in some prays and devotions, It has an personal importance in my life.

Can you tell me if there is a patristic source which make clear this? and do some of you agree with the friendly position of Lev Gillet about it? (Friendly position means here: althought is not an Orthodox dogma, as a personal belief is not an heresy).

If you were to pray the prayers of the Paracleisis (Supplicatory Canon) to the Theotokos, translated from the Greek and Russian, you will see that the Theotokos is referred to as the Immaculate One. On the Feast of the Conception of the Theotokos, in the canons, she is referred to as the one who is full of grace. Her conception was holy, as her parents were old and directed by God to conceive her, not in youthful lust, but in purity of heart. At only three years of age, at her Presentation, she willingly went to live in the Temple and to be brought up in the ways of the Lord surrounded by Temple Virgins.

At her Annunciation, the Angel of the Lord greets the Blessed Virgin as, "Hail, Full of Grace." We in Holy Orthodoxy refer to her as the Panagia: The All-Holy One. No other woman in history has been honored as the Panagia.

In fact, it is from these canons of her Conception that the Roman Catholic Church got the documentation to declare her as the "Immaculate Conception." However, as with most recent Roman Catholic dogmas, they went too far. Here I am referring to the other R.C. dogma of the "Assumption" where the Theotokos could be said to have been spared death. On the contrary, on August 15, we Orthodox celebrate the Dormition (Falling Asleep) of the Theotokos. In the canons of the feast of the Dormition, it mentions that all the Apostles were miraculously gathered together to be with her at her death, except St. Thomas. He came three days after her burial, and wanted to see the place where she was buried, but when they rolled back the stone, she was not found in the tomb. Instead, angels announced her assumption into heaven.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Maria
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

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I will ask my husband to share below.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

xenondrum
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Post by xenondrum »

Welcome Extranjero,

I am also a Catholic convert to Holy Orthodoxy.

Please be very careful if you choose to read Romanides as he is also an ecumenist like Met. Kallistos Ware, is therefore tainted, and is not to be trusted.

It would be best if you were to start praying (chanting) the Paracleisis to the Holy Virgin and if possible, pray it daily in place of the Rosary.

There is the saying that the rule of prayer is the rule of faith. Lex orandi, lex credendi. We pray as we believe.

Have you noticed that with the Novus Ordo, the very prayer life of Roman Catholicism has been perverted?
Further perverted is the Rosary, where John-Paul II added the Luminous Mysteries.
However, the worst perversion was done with the Mass and all the seven sacraments of Roman Catholicism.
Everything sacred in Roman Catholicism has now been tainted and corrupted by modernism, but this started way before Vatican II.

Study the "sacred art" of Roman Catholicism. Notice how way back at the time of Garabandal before Vatican II that the Virgin Mary was depicted as not wearing a veil. I am using lower case to refer to this false apparition. Notice that this false virgin wears a priestly vestment over her right arm. This will lead to the modernist way of women being ordained as priests. Notice also how this false apparition does not direct people to her babe.

Image

Even during the Renaissance, artists used "women of the street" or prostitutes as models for the Virgin Mary. This is simply abhorrent.

Image

Compare the above artist rendition using a model with the Icon written by St. Luke the Evangelist
and notice how the Virgin directs people toward her son by the gesture of her hand. Also notice
how St .Luke paints three stars on the Holy Virgin: indicating that she is the Ever-Virgin, that she
remained a Virgin before the birth of Christ, during the birth of Christ, and after the Holy Birth.

Image

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Maria
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

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These excerpts are taken from PDF of the Paracleisis used by the Antiochians, which is similar to that used by ROCOR.
http://www.antiochian.org/sites/default ... ervice.pdf

  • HYMNS AFTER THE SIXTH ODE
    (Tone 8)
    Preserve and save, O Theotokos, thy servants from every danger. After God, do all of
    us from refuge free unto thee; a firm rampart art thou and our protection.
    O Spotless one, who inexpressibly in the last days by a word brought forth the Word,
    do thou make request of Him, as one who hath motherly boldness. . . .

    KONTAKION
    (Tone 2)
    O Protectress of Christians that cannot be put to shame, and their constant intercessor
    before the Creator
    , despise not the petitions of us sinners who are imploring thee; in
    thy goodness come to our help, who in faith cry to thee: hasten, O Theotokos, to
    intercede for us, and hurry to pray for us, for thou hast always protected those who
    honor thee.
    . . .

    Following the Gospel:

    O entrust me not, I pray, to any human protection, O our Lady, Holy one, but do thou
    accept the prayer of thy supplicant. Sorrow hath fettered me, and I am unable to
    endure and bear the demon’s darts; a shelter have I not, nor a place to run.

    I the wretched one; embattled from all sides am I, and no consolation have I but thee;
    Mistress of creation, protection and hope of faithful ones, turn not away when I turn to
    thee; do that which will profit me.

    THEOTOKION (Tone 2)
    From thee is no one turned away ashamed and empty who doth run to thee for refuge,
    O pure Virgin Theotokos; but he asketh the favor and receiveth the gift from thee,
    unto the profit of his own request. The transformation of the afflicted,
    and the relief of those in sickness art thou in truth, O Virgin Theotokos;
    save thy people and thy flock, thou who art the peace of the embattled,
    and who art the calm of the storm-driven, the only protection of those who believe.

    THE INTERCESSION
    Priest: O God, save Thy people, and bless Thine inheritance. Visit Thy world with mercies
    and bounties. Exalt the estate of Orthodox Christians, and send down upon us Thy rich mercies.
    Through the intercessions of our all-immaculate Lady Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary
    by the might of the precious and life-giving Cross; by the protection of the honorable Bodiless Powers of heaven;
    . . .

    THE HYMN TO THE THEOTOKOS
    It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever blessed and all-blameless, and
    the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond
    compare than the Seraphim, thou who without stain barest God the Word, and art truly
    Theotokos: we magnify thee.

    THE MEGALYNARIA
    (Tone 8)
    Higher than the heavens above art thou, and thou art much purer than the radiance of
    the sun, for thou hast redeemed us out of the curse that held us.
    O Mistress of
    creation, thee do we magnify.

    From the great abundance of all my sins, ill am I in body, ailing also am I in soul. Thee
    have I as refuge. Do thou therefore help me, O hope of all the hopeless, for thou art full
    of grace.

    O Lady and Mother of Christ our God, receive supplication from us sinners, who beg of
    thee, that thou make entreaty unto the One born from thee. O Mistress of creation,
    pray thou to God for us.

    Now we chant with eagerness unto thee with this hymn, most joyful Theotokos, all
    lauded one.
    Together with the Baptist and all the Saint together, beseech, O
    Theotokos, that we find clemency.

    Speechless be the lips of the impious who refuse to reverence the revered Icon which
    is known by the name Directress and which hath been depicted for us by the Apostle,
    Luke, the Evangelist.

    Image

    O all ye array of angelic hosts, O ye Holy Baptist, and ye Holy Apostles, all the Saints
    together, as well as God’s birth giver, pray make ye intercessions for our deliverance.

    . . .

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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