Is polyphonic singing considered a heresy, not an Orthodox Tradition?

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Justice
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Is polyphonic singing considered a heresy, not an Orthodox Tradition?

Post by Justice »

I want to discuss the issue of polyphonic singing. Where in the canons does it speak of this being a heresy? And have the holy fathers talked about this? I don't know how this could have destroyed the Orthodox Church.

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Maria
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Re: Is polyphonic singing considered a heresy, not an Orthodox Tradition?

Post by Maria »

One fact to consider.

Even one little change introduced into the Divine Liturgy (such as polyphonic singing) could have a terrible effect.

Once a change is introduced, then people might want to tweak that change, and introduce more changes.
The slippery slope of Modernism is this way: one small change is all that it takes and the ship is slowly sunk.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Re: Is polyphonic singing considered a heresy, not an Orthodox Tradition?

Post by Justice »

Maria wrote:

One fact to consider.

Even one little change introduced into the Divine Liturgy (such as polyphonic singing) could have a terrible effect.

Once a change is introduced, then people might want to tweak that change, and introduce more changes.
The slippery slope of Modernism is this way: one small change is all that it takes and the ship is slowly sunk.

If the ship is sinking does that mean the Traditional Orthodox church had brought modernism after the calendar schism?

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Re: Is polyphonic singing considered a heresy, not an Orthodox Tradition?

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

One minor note: I don't know of any Orthodox or Orthodox-like Heterodox group which claims that polyphonic singing is heretical. Old Believers say that it is uncanonical, as they argue performance-based music with its more extravagant nature does not rightly reflect how we are to pray, unlike traditional monophonic Orthodox chant with the 8-tone system. And indeed, according to the canons they are correct.

For example, anyone at all familiar with some of the hymns employed in the Russian tradition today (along with some of the other Slavic traditions) will realize that many of the hymns are in clear violation of Canon LXXV (from the 102 Canons):

"We wish those who attend church for the purpose of chanting neither to employ disorderly cries and to force nature to cry out aloud nor to foist in anything that if; not becoming and proper to a church; but, on the contrary, to offer such psalmodies with much attentiveness,~ and contriteness to God, who sees directly into everything that is hidden from our sight. "For the sons of Israel shall he reverent" (Im 15:30), the sacred word has taught us."

Interpretation:
"The chanting, or psalmody, that is done in churches is in the nature of begging God to be appeased for our sins. Whoever begs and prayerfully supplicates must have a humble and contrite manner; but to cry out manifests a manner that is audacious and irreverent. On this account the present Canon commands that those who chant in the churches refrain from forcing their nature to yell, but also from saying anything else that is unsuitable for the church. But what are the things that are unsuitable for the church? The expositor Zonaras replies that they are womanish members and warblings (which is the same as saying trills. and an excessive variation or modulation in melodies which inclines towards the songs sung by harlots). The present Canon, therefore, commands that all these things be eliminated from the Church, and that those chant therein shall offer their psalmodies with great care to God, who looks into the hidden recesses of the heart; i.e. into the psalmody and prayer that are framed mentally in the heart rather than uttered in external cries. For the sacred word of Leviticus teaches us sons of Israel to be reverent to God."

That being said, I don't know of any Christian group which follows all of the canons, such as Canon LXX (of the 102 Canons), which even the Old Believers break. Here is Saint Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain's commentary:

"...According to the words of this Canon and according to the words of St. Paul, women are prohibited from teaching either in holy temples (churches) or outside thereof, for St. Paul does not mean by "church" the temple itself, but a "congregation of people" anywhere; and still more are they prohibited from chanting either in a choir of their own or along with men.

"For it is a shame for women to talk in church" (I Cor. 14:35). This means that women should keep silent in church, and out of church where-ever there is a congregation of people. The fact that the word talk is used here, and not the word speak, controverts and overthrows the allegation put forward by some persons that only teaching is forbidden to women but not chanting; for talk includes any sort of vocal utterance, and not merely articulate speech. In fact, women are not allowed to let their voice be heard at all within the sacred temple of the church. They may, of course, sing and chant in their hearts praises and blessings to God, but not with their lips..."

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Re: Is polyphonic singing considered a heresy, not an Orthodox Tradition?

Post by Justice »

NotChrysostomYet wrote:

One minor note: I don't know of any Orthodox or Orthodox-like Heterodox group which claims that polyphonic singing is heretical. Old Believers say that it is uncanonical, as they argue performance-based music with its more extravagant nature does not rightly reflect how we are to pray, unlike traditional monophonic Orthodox chant with the 8-tone system. And indeed, according to the canons they are correct.

For example, anyone at all familiar with some of the hymns employed in the Russian tradition today (along with some of the other Slavic traditions) will realize that many of the hymns are in clear violation of Canon LXXV (from the 102 Canons):

"We wish those who attend church for the purpose of chanting neither to employ disorderly cries and to force nature to cry out aloud nor to foist in anything that if; not becoming and proper to a church; but, on the contrary, to offer such psalmodies with much attentiveness,~ and contriteness to God, who sees directly into everything that is hidden from our sight. "For the sons of Israel shall he reverent" (Im 15:30), the sacred word has taught us."

Interpretation:
"The chanting, or psalmody, that is done in churches is in the nature of begging God to be appeased for our sins. Whoever begs and prayerfully supplicates must have a humble and contrite manner; but to cry out manifests a manner that is audacious and irreverent. On this account the present Canon commands that those who chant in the churches refrain from forcing their nature to yell, but also from saying anything else thahurch where-ever there is a congregation of people. The fact that the word talk is used here, and not the word speak, controverts and overthrows the allegation put forward by some persons that only teaching is forbidden to women but not chanting; for talk includes any sort of vocal uttet is unsuitable for the church. But what are the things that are unsuitable for the church? The expositor Zonaras replies that they are womanish members and warblings (which is the same as saying trills. and an excessive variation or modulation in melodies which inclines towards the songs sung by harlots). The present Canon, therefore, commands that all these things be eliminated from the Church, and that those chant therein shall offer their psalmodies with great care to God, who looks into the hidden recesses of the heart; i.e. into the psalmody and prayer that are framed mentally in the heart rather than uttered in external cries. For the sacred word of Leviticus teaches us sons of Israel to be reverent to God."

That being said, I don't know of any Christian group which follows all of the canons, such as Canon LXX (of the 102 Canons), which even the Old Believers break. Here is Saint Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain's commentary:

"...According to the words of this Canon and according to the words of St. Paul, women are prohibited from teaching either in holy temples (churches) or outside thereof, for St. Paul does not mean by "church" the temple itself, but a "congregation of people" anywhere; and still more are they prohibited from chanting either in a choir of their own or along with men.

"For it is a shame for women to talk in church" (I Cor. 14:35). This means that women should keep silent in church, and out of crance, and not merely articulate speech. In fact, women are not allowed to let their voice be heard at all within the sacred temple of the church. They may, of course, sing and chant in their hearts praises and blessings to God, but not with their lips..."

If this is the case then isn't the Traditional Orthodox Church self condemned?

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Re: Is polyphonic singing considered a heresy, not an Orthodox Tradition?

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Justice wrote:
NotChrysostomYet wrote:

One minor note: I don't know of any Orthodox or Orthodox-like Heterodox group which claims that polyphonic singing is heretical. Old Believers say that it is uncanonical, as they argue performance-based music with its more extravagant nature does not rightly reflect how we are to pray, unlike traditional monophonic Orthodox chant with the 8-tone system. And indeed, according to the canons they are correct.

For example, anyone at all familiar with some of the hymns employed in the Russian tradition today (along with some of the other Slavic traditions) will realize that many of the hymns are in clear violation of Canon LXXV (from the 102 Canons):

"We wish those who attend church for the purpose of chanting neither to employ disorderly cries and to force nature to cry out aloud nor to foist in anything that if; not becoming and proper to a church; but, on the contrary, to offer such psalmodies with much attentiveness,~ and contriteness to God, who sees directly into everything that is hidden from our sight. "For the sons of Israel shall he reverent" (Im 15:30), the sacred word has taught us."

Interpretation:
"The chanting, or psalmody, that is done in churches is in the nature of begging God to be appeased for our sins. Whoever begs and prayerfully supplicates must have a humble and contrite manner; but to cry out manifests a manner that is audacious and irreverent. On this account the present Canon commands that those who chant in the churches refrain from forcing their nature to yell, but also from saying anything else thahurch where-ever there is a congregation of people. The fact that the word talk is used here, and not the word speak, controverts and overthrows the allegation put forward by some persons that only teaching is forbidden to women but not chanting; for talk includes any sort of vocal uttet is unsuitable for the church. But what are the things that are unsuitable for the church? The expositor Zonaras replies that they are womanish members and warblings (which is the same as saying trills. and an excessive variation or modulation in melodies which inclines towards the songs sung by harlots). The present Canon, therefore, commands that all these things be eliminated from the Church, and that those chant therein shall offer their psalmodies with great care to God, who looks into the hidden recesses of the heart; i.e. into the psalmody and prayer that are framed mentally in the heart rather than uttered in external cries. For the sacred word of Leviticus teaches us sons of Israel to be reverent to God."

That being said, I don't know of any Christian group which follows all of the canons, such as Canon LXX (of the 102 Canons), which even the Old Believers break. Here is Saint Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain's commentary:

"...According to the words of this Canon and according to the words of St. Paul, women are prohibited from teaching either in holy temples (churches) or outside thereof, for St. Paul does not mean by "church" the temple itself, but a "congregation of people" anywhere; and still more are they prohibited from chanting either in a choir of their own or along with men.

"For it is a shame for women to talk in church" (I Cor. 14:35). This means that women should keep silent in church, and out of crance, and not merely articulate speech. In fact, women are not allowed to let their voice be heard at all within the sacred temple of the church. They may, of course, sing and chant in their hearts praises and blessings to God, but not with their lips..."

If this is the case then isn't the Traditional Orthodox Church self condemned?

Honestly I don't know what group you mean by that (GOC-A in your case?), but if you believe that you have to precisely stick to the canons - then yes, literally all Orthodox groups (even the traditional ones) are condemned. I don't think Orthodoxy has ceased to exist though, so I am of the view that the canons should ideally be followed, even though they are not. And it's not my place to make sure they are followed or not, either.

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Re: Is polyphonic singing considered a heresy, not an Orthodox Tradition?

Post by Justice »

I do think that all Orthodox churches should adhere to all the canons, though this may not be the Orthodox church's opinion on this matter.

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