What is so heretical about the Tridentine Mass?

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NotChrysostomYet
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What is so heretical about the Tridentine Mass?

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Alright, so I have to ask what exactly you guys find heretical about the Tridentine Mass - assuming the filioque is removed, of course. Here's a translation of the basic Tridentine Mass according to the 1962 missal: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/latinmass2.asp

Because what I don't get is criticizing a liturgy just because it was not used by an Orthodox group for a time (even though at one point it was).

P.S. Here's a video from Saint Patrick Orthodox Church in Virginia:

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Maria
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Re: What is so heretical about the Tridentine Mass?

Post by Maria »

NotChrysostomYet wrote:

Alright, so I have to ask what exactly you guys find heretical about the Tridentine Mass - assuming the filioque is removed, of course. Here's a translation of the basic Tridentine Mass according to the 1962 missal: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/latinmass2.asp

Because what I don't get is criticizing a liturgy just because it was not used by an Orthodox group for a time (even though at one point it was).

P.S. Here's a video from Saint Patrick Orthodox Church in Virginia:

There are many things wrong with the Tridentine Mass. Primarily but not exclusively, I will list a few obvious points. Feel free to add to this list:

  • 1. The Filioque addition to the Nicene Creed, which is unscriptural, and which addition violates two Ecumenical Councils.

    1. The use of unleavened bread

    2. The distribution of Communion in the form of bread only to the faithful.

    3. The commemoration of the Pope of Rome in the Canon.

    4. The lack of a clear epiclesis, which is the calling down of the Holy Spirit upon the gifts.

    5. The elimination of the Trisagion, which elimination occurred in the 800s, a time of history where Rome was becoming increasingly hostile to all things Byzantine and Greek.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Re: What is so heretical about the Tridentine Mass?

Post by Justice »

NotChrysostomYet wrote:

Alright, so I have to ask what exactly you guys find heretical about the Tridentine Mass - assuming the filioque is removed, of course. Here's a translation of the basic Tridentine Mass according to the 1962 missal: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/latinmass2.asp

Because what I don't get is criticizing a liturgy just because it was not used by an Orthodox group for a time (even though at one point it was).

P.S. Here's a video from Saint Patrick Orthodox Church in Virginia:

When was the Orthodox Church using the Tridentine-Rite? The Tridentine-Rite is post-schism and was conveyed by Pope Paul III who lived 500 years after the schism. The church in the video has borrowed from the Roman Catholic and Anglican mass. The various World Orthodox churches actually don't like it when the true form of the Western-Rite is used as this would go against the ecumenical movement.

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Re: What is so heretical about the Tridentine Mass?

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Maria wrote:
NotChrysostomYet wrote:

Alright, so I have to ask what exactly you guys find heretical about the Tridentine Mass - assuming the filioque is removed, of course. Here's a translation of the basic Tridentine Mass according to the 1962 missal: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/latinmass2.asp

Because what I don't get is criticizing a liturgy just because it was not used by an Orthodox group for a time (even though at one point it was).

P.S. Here's a video from Saint Patrick Orthodox Church in Virginia:

There are many things wrong with the Tridentine Mass. Primarily but not exclusively, I will list a few obvious points. Feel free to add to this list:

  • 1. The Filioque addition to the Nicene Creed, which is unscriptural, and which addition violates two Ecumenical Councils.

    1. The use of unleavened bread

    2. The distribution of Communion in the form of bread only to the faithful.

    3. The commemoration of the Pope of Rome in the Canon.

    4. The lack of a clear epiclesis, which is the calling down of the Holy Spirit upon the gifts.

    5. The elimination of the Trisagion, which elimination occurred in the 800s, a time of history where Rome was becoming increasingly hostile to all things Byzantine and Greek.

1. I did say assuming the filioque was removed, as I'm assuming that we are talking about a Western Rite Orthodox Tridentine Mass.

2. We were in communion with Rome for hundreds of years after they started using unleavened bread. Saint Photios of Constantinople, for example, cited as a non-essential that didn't need to be a divisive issue. It only became an issue later. Nonetheless, assuming that we are talking about a Western Rite Orthodox liturgy, they use slightly leavened bread.

3. Admittedly this is a problem and would have to be changed. I hadn't thought of that. But again, the Western Rite Orthodox who use the Liturgy of Saint Gregory give communion in both kinds.

4. That's not necessarily intrinsic to the liturgy. Obviously if it were being used in an Orthodox context the Pope of Rome would not be commemorated.

5. Yes, that is (probably) a problem. The Liturgy of Saint Gregory did insert in a more defined epiclesis from the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.

6. Wasn't the Trisagion only something that started being used in Constantinople after an earthquake? It was adopted later in other areas, but this seems to indicate that it wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

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Re: What is so heretical about the Tridentine Mass?

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Justice wrote:
NotChrysostomYet wrote:

Alright, so I have to ask what exactly you guys find heretical about the Tridentine Mass - assuming the filioque is removed, of course. Here's a translation of the basic Tridentine Mass according to the 1962 missal: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/latinmass2.asp

Because what I don't get is criticizing a liturgy just because it was not used by an Orthodox group for a time (even though at one point it was).

P.S. Here's a video from Saint Patrick Orthodox Church in Virginia:

When was the Orthodox Church using the Tridentine-Rite? The Tridentine-Rite is post-schism and was conveyed by Pope Paul III who lived 500 years after the schism. The church in the video has borrowed from the Roman Catholic and Anglican mass. The various World Orthodox churches actually don't like it when the true form of the Western-Rite is used as this would go against the ecumenical movement.

The Tridentine Mass (it's not a rite; it's the mass of the Latin Rite after Trent) is heavily based off of the Roman Mass that had essentially remained the same since the reforms of Saint Gregory the Great/Dialogist. What Trent did was standardize the local practices of Rome and mandate its use for the vast majority of the Latin Rite, with a few exceptions.

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Maria
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Re: What is so heretical about the Tridentine Mass?

Post by Maria »

Actually, although Paul III presided over the first eight sessions of the Council of Trent, it was "Saint" Pius V, a Dominican, who called the final sessions of the Council of Trent, and who standardized the Tridentine Mass (named after the Council of Trent)

A lot of liturgical abuse had happened since St. Gregory the Great, as there were about 250 varieties of the Mass in use.
Pope Pius V issued an encyclical specifying that the Mass would remain in Latin in perpetuum and that it could not be changed. Well, no sooner did the ink dry on Pius V's encyclical than one small change after another started creeping into the Mass again. In the mid 1960s, when SSPX and other traditional Catholics resumed saying the Tridentine Mass, the 1962 version which they used was far from the original Tridentine Mass and the Gregorian Mass as Pius XII and many popes before him had allowed changes in the Mass.

Below is the address given by Pius V at the Council of Trent showing that the faith had deteriorated. In fact, this rings true of Catholicism in general today.

For today nothing of those illustrious States that heretofore professed, in piety and holiness, the true Catholic Faith transmitted to them by their ancestors, but are now gone astray, wandering from the paths of truth and openly declaring that their best claims to piety are founded on total abandonment of the Faith of their fathers, there is no region however remote, no place however securely guarded, no corner of Christendom, into which this pestilence has not sought secretly to insinuate itself.

http://www.traditio.com/feature/piusv.htm

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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