Western Rite Orthodoxy

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Agios_Irineos
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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by Agios_Irineos »

The "Liturgy of St. Tikhon" is simply a re-worked Anglican BCP liturgy. It is not a historical Orthodox rite. It never has been and it never will be. It is also not a liturgy that was "approved" by the Russian synod. It was a proposed approach to receiving Anglicans into Orthodoxy which never came to pass and was never subjected to vetting by the synod or its liturgical experts.

The Western Rite Vicariate was disbanded by ROCOR, but Western Rite was not abandoned. Rather, the WR parishes were all placed under Met. Hilarion directly, and a Dean for the Western Rite Communities appointed.

The Western Rite vicariate structure and administration model that were previously in place, as well as those formerly in charge and holding administrative roles such as Pastoral Vicar and the Vicar Bishop, have been released as a result of these decisions of the Synod of Bishops, in order to more effectively implement this new vision for the continued spiritual growth and existence and strengthening of the church communities in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.
To this end, all Western Rite communities will be directly under the oversight and omophorion of the President of the Synod of Bishops, Metropolitan Hilarion.

There was absolutely no reversal of this position. The Western Rite is an infinitesimally small portion of Orthodoxy from which have flowed and do flow mountains of massive errors of theology and practice greatly disproportionate to its actual existence. We can speculate as to the reasons, but I would suggest that by and large it is simply that those who practice it do not truly wish to become Orthodox, but simply want the recognition.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

HieromonkIrineos wrote:

The "Liturgy of St. Tikhon" is simply a re-worked Anglican BCP liturgy. It is not a historical Orthodox rite. It never has been and it never will be. It is also not a liturgy that was "approved" by the Russian synod. It was a proposed approach to receiving Anglicans into Orthodoxy which never came to pass and was never subjected to vetting by the synod or its liturgical experts.

The Western Rite Vicariate was disbanded by ROCOR, but Western Rite was not abandoned. Rather, the WR parishes were all placed under Met. Hilarion directly, and a Dean for the Western Rite Communities appointed.

The Western Rite vicariate structure and administration model that were previously in place, as well as those formerly in charge and holding administrative roles such as Pastoral Vicar and the Vicar Bishop, have been released as a result of these decisions of the Synod of Bishops, in order to more effectively implement this new vision for the continued spiritual growth and existence and strengthening of the church communities in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.
To this end, all Western Rite communities will be directly under the oversight and omophorion of the President of the Synod of Bishops, Metropolitan Hilarion.

There was absolutely no reversal of this position. The Western Rite is an infinitesimally small portion of Orthodoxy from which have flowed and do flow mountains of massive errors of theology and practice greatly disproportionate to its actual existence. We can speculate as to the reasons, but I would suggest that by and large it is simply that those who practice it do not truly wish to become Orthodox, but simply want the recognition.

Hmm, well to be honest I can't take your word for it since this does not line up with what I've read so far. I'll have to do more research, and quite frankly researching the Western Rite is not the first thing on my priority list. I hope you'll understand.

FYI, I don't think anyone is arguing that the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is itself a historic liturgy. Saint Tikhon did have a had it its creation though, and the Anglican BCP Liturgy (with innovations removed) does have a lot in common with the liturgy of Orthodox England. I won't claim that it is the same, of course, but the similarities are nonetheless there.

Agios_Irineos
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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by Agios_Irineos »

NotChrysostomYet wrote:

Hmm, well to be honest I can't take your word for it since this does not line up with what I've read so far. I'll have to do more research, and quite frankly researching the Western Rite is not the first thing on my priority list. I hope you'll understand.

FYI, I don't think anyone is arguing that the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is itself a historic liturgy. Saint Tikhon did have a had it its creation though, and the Anglican BCP Liturgy (with innovations removed) does have a lot in common with the liturgy of Orthodox England. I won't claim that it is the same, of course, but the similarities are nonetheless there.

I'm not asking you to take my word for anything. But you made incorrect statements (which by your own admission you have not researched) and I have corrected them. You are free to believe as you wish, but you will find no synodal approval of the "Liturgy of St. Tikhon" by the Moscow Patriarchate. Tikhon never presented it for approval. You will find no reversal of the abolishment of the WRV in ROCOR. Regarding the "liturgy," regardless of similarities, I would simply ask why pre-schism rites aren't being used if one actually desired to be Orthodox. Where else in Orthodoxy have we taken a heterodox rite, scrubbed it, and declared it a valid expression of Orthodox liturgy?

If no record of pre-schism Western rites existed, I could see the argument (though I would still disagree with it). But that isn't the case. All that is happening is ROCOR andf Antioch are permitting the use of an essentially heterodox service in order to accommodate the comfort of Anglicans purporting to be Orthodox.

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Maria
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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by Maria »

HieromonkIrineos wrote:
NotChrysostomYet wrote:

Hmm, well to be honest I can't take your word for it since this does not line up with what I've read so far. I'll have to do more research, and quite frankly researching the Western Rite is not the first thing on my priority list. I hope you'll understand.

FYI, I don't think anyone is arguing that the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is itself a historic liturgy. Saint Tikhon did have a had it its creation though, and the Anglican BCP Liturgy (with innovations removed) does have a lot in common with the liturgy of Orthodox England. I won't claim that it is the same, of course, but the similarities are nonetheless there.

I'm not asking you to take my word for anything. But you made incorrect statements (which by your own admission you have not researched) and I have corrected them. You are free to believe as you wish, but you will find no synodal approval of the "Liturgy of St. Tikhon" by the Moscow Patriarchate. Tikhon never presented it for approval. You will find no reversal of the abolishment of the WRV in ROCOR. Regarding the "liturgy," regardless of similarities, I would simply ask why pre-schism rites aren't being used if one actually desired to be Orthodox. Where else in Orthodoxy have we taken a heterodox rite, scrubbed it, and declared it a valid expression of Orthodox liturgy?

If no record of pre-schism Western rites existed, I could see the argument (though I would still disagree with it). But that isn't the case. All that is happening is ROCOR andf Antioch are permitting the use of an essentially heterodox service in order to accommodate the comfort of Anglicans purporting to be Orthodox.

Both Deacon Joseph Suaiden and Hieromonk Enoch who are under Met. John (LoBue) of New York, profess that the Western Rite Divine Liturgy (Mass) which they use is pre-schism, but is it? Since this TOC Synod uses a more devout form of English, someone has translated this Mass from the Latin into the English. However, wasn't the original Mass by St. Gregory the Dialogos standardized in Latin (or that action was attributed to him)? St. Gregory I, also known as Gregory the Great or St. Gregory the Dialogus, was Pope of Rome from September 3, 590, until his death on March 12, 604.

Whereas the Divine Liturgy has always been celebrated in the devout (liturgical) language of the people, Arabic, Greek, Slavonic, etc., the pre-schism Mass has always been in Latin since the days of St. Gregory the Great. It was only during WWII with the permission of Pope Pius XII that England, France, and Germany started using translations into English, French, and German, but there were many liturgical abuses that arose, especially by the notorious Jesuit, Teilhard de Chardin. This is why Pius XII wrote Mystici Corporis, but that encyclical, while condemning liturgical abuse, also established Diocesan Liturgical Commissions, which promoted the idea of more liturgical changes and, ultimately, the Vatican II Council. Vatican II changed everything by the institution of the Novus Ordo and the horrific vernacular translations into modernist languages that further perverted the once holy Mass.

Although I attended two Masses celebrated by a priest under Met. John who was a former Jesuit priest, I prefer the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, which helps keep me more attentive due to the continual responses by the laity and choir, the presence of many icons on the walls and ceilings, the candles, the incense, the vestments, the processions, the Byzantine Chant, and the very architecture of an Orthodox Christian Temple. Everything in an Orthodox Church draws one's attention to the Lord, the Theotokos, and the multiple witnesses of saints and angels who surround us during a Divine Liturgy. St. John the Theologian says in his book of Revelation, that the Divine Liturgy is the Feast of the Lamb, and I agree. It is heavenly.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Justice
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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by Justice »

Although I attended two Masses celebrated by a priest under Met. John who was a former Jesuit priest, I prefer the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, which helps keep me more attentive due to the continual responses by the laity and choir, the presence of many icons on the walls and ceilings, the candles, the incense, the vestments, the processions, the Byzantine Chant, and the very architecture of an Orthodox Christian Temple. Everything in an Orthodox Church draws one's attention to the Lord, the Theotokos, and the multiple witnesses of saints and angels who surround us during a Divine Liturgy. St. John the Theologian says in his book of Revelation, that the Divine Liturgy is the Feast of the Lamb, and I agree. It is heavenly.

I have not attended nor seen anything of Met. John's liturgies, so I cannot judge the true Western-Rite. What I can do is judge the ROCOR-MP Western-Rite and give my thoughts and preferences:

From what I've seen through footage, the Western-Rite churches are very whitewashed. The most Iv'e seen is a few singular icons on the walls and above the iconostasis.

I love both the Eastern-Rite and Western-Rite though I slightly prefer the Western-Rite. Granted I haven't experienced a Divine Liturgy yet and as Maria has said, Orthodoxy is something you must experience in person.

I find it very strange to see Russian Orthodox Monks dressing and chanting according to the Western-Rite. Even though I prefer the look of the Western-Rite to the Eastern, I think that the Western-Rite should be used as it was when the church was united: throughout Italy all the way to Britain.

I think at on point In history the Western-Rite churches had icons, candles, and traditional views as seen in the church of Santa Pudenziana in Rome. Though the Great Schism has allowed for innovations to come into the Roman "Church".

Last edited by Justice on Fri 6 October 2017 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Barbara
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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by Barbara »

I watched the clip you posted, Justice, of the blessing of the bell at St Patrick's Church in Virginia.
That's the first time I had seen a video of a Western Rite service.

It was quite interesting with the altar servers in the Catholic white embroidered garments, and the clergy holding their hands together in prayer in the Catholic way while serving.

I too found the walls uncomfortably bare. Maybe this Church is new and does not have all the icons up yet, one hopes ?
Perhaps people should send them some to fill up the large empty expanses ...

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Barbara wrote:

I watched the clip you posted, Justice, of the blessing of the bell at St Patrick's Church in Virginia.
That's the first time I had seen a video of a Western Rite service.

It was quite interesting with the altar servers in the Catholic white embroidered garments, and the clergy holding their hands together in prayer in the Catholic way while serving.

I too found the walls uncomfortably bare. Maybe this Church is new and does not have all the icons up yet, one hopes ?
Perhaps people should send them some to fill up the large empty expanses ...

FYI I posted the video. Yes, it is brand-new. (Hence the video: that's their first bell). Their previous building had mounted icon prints on the walls, so perhaps they are looking to do something more proper now that they have a good location.

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