Challenge from a World Orthodox Christian

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Justice
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Challenge from a World Orthodox Christian

Post by Justice »

I got a challenge recently from a person in World Orthodoxy about is it right to split of from the church (the usual stuff) but the main thing in his response was when he challenged me about when St Athanaseus was confronting the Arians who made up almost the entirety of the church, never split from them. Does anybody have a response to this?

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Maria
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Re: Challenge from a World Orthodox Christian

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Justice wrote:

I got a challenge recently from a person in World Orthodoxy about is it right to split of from the church (the usual stuff) but the main thing in his response was when he challenged me about when St Athanaseus was confronting the Arians who made up almost the entirety of the church, never split from them. Does anybody have a response to this?

Before the advent of the Arians in the mid 300 A.D., the Orthodox Catholic Church had never faced such a blatant heresy, one that denied the very Divinity of Christ as the Arians were fond of saying, "There was a time when He was not." These Arians believed, as Arians today continue to believe, that Christ became God in time, and that He was not always God.

Consider that Mormons are Arians as they also believe that Christ became God in time, and that all of mankind who follows Mormonism will become Gods too, and will rule over and populate their own planets. This is the diabolical appeal to pride that Arianism has.

Before Arianism, there was no need for Canon 15 (861 A.D.) on how to deal with this matter, so how could the early Church Fathers, such as St. Athanasios, deal with this situation of mass heresy where about 90 percent of the Bishops had fallen into heresy? There was no canonical procedure to do so.

And are we not in a similar situation today with this ugly Pan-Heresy called Ecumenism where Orthodox Hierarchs and the Roman Catholic Pope and its Prelates are praying openly with Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, and other non-Christians?

If you have not read the recent articles at NFTU regarding canons-commemoration-chaos-and-churches and also the article about the Russian Orthodox Priest who is now a non-commemorator, and who cited Canon 15, please do so. http://nftu.net/canons-commemoration-ch ... positions/

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Maria
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Re: Challenge from a World Orthodox Christian

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Justice, I must caution you.

About ten years ago, I met a Muslim inquirer into Holy Orthodoxy. He was very zealous and read every book he could. He was even attending the local Orthodox Church and preparing for his Holy Baptism. However, he wanted to prove to the priest how zealous he was, because he wanted to be baptized yesterday and not wait one more day.

This particular inquirer failed to realize that the Holy Mystery of Baptism is not given immediately so that the inquirer or catechumen may have a chance to start living the life of Holy Orthodoxy, so that when he puts on his Baptismal garment, he will not soil it with sin. Thus, the entire goal of a catechumen is to become purified, illuminated, and sanctified through the Mysteries of Initiation so that once baptized, he can remain pure and faithful to Christ until his death. This may seem impossible, but with God everything is possible.

So our zealous iinquirer started debating with atheists. Soon, he was on every atheist forum he could find, trying to win them over to Orthodox Christianity. Several of us tried to warn him not to do this, but he refused to listen to his priest and to us. Finally, he succumbed to the logical arguments of the atheists and became an atheist himself.

At this time in your journey, it is extremely important to pray in silence, study in silence, and learn as much about the faith as you can. Even more important than your studies is your rule of prayer because this is your means of communication with Christ, the Blessed Theotokos, and all the Angels and Saints, who will protect you and guide you into Holy Orthodoxy.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Agios_Irineos
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Re: Challenge from a World Orthodox Christian

Post by Agios_Irineos »

Tell him you agree that it is not right to split from the Church. The World Orthodox should never have done that by departing from the faith and embracing ecumenism. They are welcome to repent and return though.

I say this only half snarkily.

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Maria
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Re: Challenge from a World Orthodox Christian

Post by Maria »

HieromonkIrineos wrote:

Tell him you agree that it is not right to split from the Church. The World Orthodox should never have done that by departing from the faith and embracing ecumenism. They are welcome to repent and return though.

I say this only half snarkily.

Thank you, Father.

Actually, you are correct. It was the Ecumenists who left the One and only True Orthodox Church because we are forbidden to join in prayer with heretics, pagans, atheists, and non-Christians. It was they who violated our Holy Canons and who incurred excommunication, defrocking, etc.

Faithful laity and priests who stay under the EP or MP will often quote from the life of St. Seraphim of Sarov saying that St. Seraphim prayed for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and even Muslims, and that these people were even healed. They give the false impression that St. Seraphim prayed with these non-Orthodox. This is bearing false witness. What these world orthodox fail to grasp is that there is a huge difference between praying for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims versus praying with Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims.

On the one hand, if I am asked to lead the prayers at dinner for my relatives who are a diverse set of Protestants, I can do so with a clean heart because I am saying the prayers. I am praying for them, and leading the prayers.

  • So, we can invite World Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims to attend our Holy Services, but they will have to stay in the Narthex (the entrance where the candles are), which is outside the Nave. In the Narthex, they cannot lead prayers, nor can they pray with us. While they can join us in saying the Lord's Prayer, they cannot lead that prayer. While they can sing Xristos Anesti with us, they cannot sing at the Chanters' stand nor join the Choir, as that would be considered leading. Actually, to be on the safe side, most non-Orthodox visitors are asked to sit and listen, and not worry about participating.

On the other hand, if I am asked to come to dinner with my relatives where my independent and heretical bible-believing, bible-preaching brother will give the blessing, I cannot attend that prayer session nor eat with my relatives as I am forbidden to pray with them.

  • Thus, we can pray for our relatives, even in their presence, that they may be healed and have a safe journey, but we cannot bow our heads and have them pray for us, or bow our heads while a non-Orthodox family member or minister leads the family in prayers for a relative that is sick or dying.

In conclusion, while we can pray FOR others and should do so every day, we cannot pray together WITH others who lead the prayers, or have them pray FOR us while we are present.

If I am wrong, Father, please correct me, but this is what my spiritual father told me, and I am trying to recall the conversation precisely as he told me.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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