Why some of the SSPX supporters converted to Orthodoxy?

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d9popov
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Why some of the SSPX supporters converted to Orthodoxy?

Post by d9popov »

sedevacantist wrote:

not wrong, it's a dogma of the Catholic Church that there is no salvation outside the Church, if you don't believe in papal supremacy, the filioque you can't consider yourself a Catholic

Dear Sedevantist and Anthony1986: My comments on the Filioque thread are relevant to your questions. Allow me to add: (1) The ancient Catholic Church did not believe in papal infallibility. Pope Honorius was condemned as a heretic and anathematized by the Sixth Ecumenical Council. Popes-elect had to repeat this anathematization before assuming the papal office. (2) Although "Filioque" is true in a limited sense (about temporal mission), it is heretical to put it into the Creed, which is speaking about ultimate origin. The ancient Roman Church forbade the introduction of the Filioque into the Creed. The ancient Roman Church was correct to forbid it. These are two strong pieces of evidence that the true Catholic Church survived in the East and fell into medieval heresies in the West.

d9popov
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Re: Why some of the SSPX supporters converted to Orthodoxy?

Post by d9popov »

anthony1986 wrote:

I have the serious doubt about papal infallibility and papal supremacy even when I was teenager.
Right now I am praying and studying theology and church history to find out the original true christian church.

Dear Anthony (and Sedevacantist):
The Roman Catholic system, historically, was created in the eleventh century (the Gregorian Reformation) and subsequently. Historians agree that there were massive changes in the Latin Church at that time. Hans Kung expressed the view of scholarly historians when he stated: "It was not until the 11th century that a 'revolution from above,' the 'Gregorian Reform' started by Pope Gregory VII, left us with the three enduring features of the Roman system: a centralist-absolutist papacy, compulsory clericalism and the obligation of celibacy for priests and other secular clergy." https://nyti.ms/2lqWDWz. In other words (my words, not Kung's): The Orthodox were faithful to the Fathers and thus the Orthodox Christians continued the true Church, whereas the Latin Church went through revolutions and reformations, and fell away from patristic Christianity. One should not fear Hell for converting to Orthodoxy, one should fear Hell for staying in the Roman Church (or a Sedevacantist Latin-rite church), which history proves did not remain faithful to what it used to believe in ancient times (no Filioque in Creed, no papal infallibility, no papal supremacy over ecumenical councils, leavened bread, Communion in both kinds, married priests, fasting, etc.). On the major issues, the Orthodox East preserved the ancient patristic consensus of East and West, whereas the West radically changed itself in the eleventh century and subsequently. The Catholic Church remained in the East. The Western Church undeniably changed radically---therefore it was guilty for the East-West schism and it ceased to be Christ's Church.

Archimandrit Nilos
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Re: Why some of the SSPX supporters converted to Orthodoxy?

Post by Archimandrit Nilos »

I am astonished. Hans Kueng is a rationalist and modernist theologian of the Roman Church. We cannot learn something from him. But the name of Ignaz Döllinger (1799-1890) was a serious Roman theologian who was excommunicated (excommunicatio maior) from his Archbishop Gregor Scherr (+1877) of Munich, is worth mentionning. His book Janus (reprinted in German language) is very important.

Justice
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Re: Why some of the SSPX supporters converted to Orthodoxy?

Post by Justice »

I saw on a world Orthodox forum, that Anthony1986 has chosen to be in the Russian Orthodox Diocese of Korsun. I hope he reconsiders I don't know if he's aware of the problems in Russian World Orthodoxy.

sedevacantist
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Re: Why some of the SSPX supporters converted to Orthodoxy?

Post by sedevacantist »

HieromonkIrineos wrote:
sedevacantist wrote:

not wrong, it's a dogma of the Catholic Church that there is no salvation outside the Church, if you don't believe in papal supremacy, the filioque you can't consider yourself a Catholic

And that matters to me as an Orthodox Christian, why? We reject papal supremacy. We know the filioque to be heretical innovation. I'm not real clear on why you are here, other than apparently to proselytize your error further. While I can sympathize with your frustration with the modern RC church, just going back to the pre-Vat2 days isn't going to erase the fruits of the post-schism error.

I'll leave it to the admin here, but it strikes me as HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE to come onto an Orthodox forum, and threaten a Latin catholic inquiring into Orthodoxy with eternal damnation unless he accepts your heresies. Particularly in a sub-forum for inquiring into Orthodoxy.

the point I was making was to consider oneself Catholic one must believe in the dogma of no salvation outside the Church, so if it doesn't matter to you so be it, I didn't write it to you. The only error post schism is from the orthodox Church..not the Catholic Church. What I find HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE is someone telling me I had threatened a fellow Catholic....it's a dogma of the Catholic Church no salvation outside...it's not that complicated...whether I'm in the wrong sub forum is another issue which I am not certain of

sedevacantist
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Re: Why some of the SSPX supporters converted to Orthodoxy?

Post by sedevacantist »

d9popov wrote:
anthony1986 wrote:

I have the serious doubt about papal infallibility and papal supremacy even when I was teenager.
Right now I am praying and studying theology and church history to find out the original true christian church.

Dear Anthony (and Sedevacantist):
The Roman Catholic system, historically, was created in the eleventh century (the Gregorian Reformation) and subsequently. Historians agree that there were massive changes in the Latin Church at that time. Hans Kung expressed the view of scholarly historians when he stated: "It was not until the 11th century that a 'revolution from above,' the 'Gregorian Reform' started by Pope Gregory VII, left us with the three enduring features of the Roman system: a centralist-absolutist papacy, compulsory clericalism and the obligation of celibacy for priests and other secular clergy." https://nyti.ms/2lqWDWz. In other words (my words, not Kung's): The Orthodox were faithful to the Fathers and thus the Orthodox Christians continued the true Church, whereas the Latin Church went through revolutions and reformations, and fell away from patristic Christianity. One should not fear Hell for converting to Orthodoxy, one should fear Hell for staying in the Roman Church (or a Sedevacantist Latin-rite church), which history proves did not remain faithful to what it used to believe in ancient times (no Filioque in Creed, no papal infallibility, no papal supremacy over ecumenical councils, leavened bread, Communion in both kinds, married priests, fasting, etc.). On the major issues, the Orthodox East preserved the ancient patristic consensus of East and West, whereas the West radically changed itself in the eleventh century and subsequently. The Catholic Church remained in the East. The Western Church undeniably changed radically---therefore it was guilty for the East-West schism and it ceased to be Christ's Church.

D9 , the points you bring up are the points I like to discuss, you are wrong of course. Let's come up with pre schism writings that prove your points for and against. Not sure what you mean by centralist-absolutist papacy....do you not mean papal supremacy?

Agios_Irineos
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Re: Why some of the SSPX supporters converted to Orthodoxy?

Post by Agios_Irineos »

sedevacantist wrote:
HieromonkIrineos wrote:
sedevacantist wrote:

not wrong, it's a dogma of the Catholic Church that there is no salvation outside the Church, if you don't believe in papal supremacy, the filioque you can't consider yourself a Catholic

And that matters to me as an Orthodox Christian, why? We reject papal supremacy. We know the filioque to be heretical innovation. I'm not real clear on why you are here, other than apparently to proselytize your error further. While I can sympathize with your frustration with the modern RC church, just going back to the pre-Vat2 days isn't going to erase the fruits of the post-schism error.

I'll leave it to the admin here, but it strikes me as HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE to come onto an Orthodox forum, and threaten a Latin catholic inquiring into Orthodoxy with eternal damnation unless he accepts your heresies. Particularly in a sub-forum for inquiring into Orthodoxy.

the point I was making was to consider oneself Catholic one must believe in the dogma of no salvation outside the Church, so if it doesn't matter to you so be it, I didn't write it to you. The only error post schism is from the orthodox Church..not the Catholic Church. What I find HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE is someone telling me I had threatened a fellow Catholic....it's a dogma of the Catholic Church no salvation outside...it's not that complicated...whether I'm in the wrong sub forum is another issue which I am not certain of

I believe you are entirely in the wrong forum. This is not a Catholic apologetics forum. Proselytization of Catholic heresy is inappropriate. You have no interest in Orthodoxy. Your only interest is in broadcasting Roman error for wider consumption. Maria, if this is now acceptable behavior in this forum, I will have to take my leave.

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