Non-Christian Inquirer

This is a safe harbor for inquirers and catechumen to ask questions and share their journey into Holy Orthodoxy. Please be kind to our newcomers and warmly welcome them. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
fschmidt
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Non-Christian Inquirer

Post by fschmidt »

I follow the Old Testament. So why am I interested in True Orthodoxy? Because I want to see God's will done, and I will support any religion that is aligned with God's will even if I don't share their beliefs. Superficially this may sound like ecumenism, but in fact it is the opposite. Modern culture is evil and violates God's will. There are very few religions that are good, and even those should never be mixed because good religions need to maintain their internal integrity. Mixing 2 good religions actually produces a bad religion.

I grew up atheist and later studied various religions and concluded that the Old Testament best reflects what I believe. But no religion follows the Old Testament (certainly not Talmudic Judaism). So I decided that the best practicing religion was Orthodox Christianity. But after attended Orthodox church for a while, I was disappointed to see that they were conforming the evils of the world in violation of Romans 12:2, and I stopped going. But I later discovered True Orthodoxy which may be better alternative for me.

Just as I expect Orthodox Christians to maintain their integrity and not compromise their religion, I do the same regarding my beliefs. So for example, I can honestly repeat about 2/3 of the Orthodox liturgy, but I refuse to repeat those parts that violate my beliefs. The Lord's Prayer is 100% compatible with my beliefs. The Nicene Creed is not.

Obviously the ideal would be for me to be part of a religion that perfectly reflects my beliefs. But such a religion does not exist. True Orthodox Christianity seems to be the best compromise that I can find. So my question is whether a True Orthodox church would accept me attending their services regularly? In return, I would actively support that church. And of course I would never advocate non-Christian beliefs in the church.

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Maria
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Re: Non-Christian Inquirer

Post by Maria »

Since the Nicene Creed is based on the New Testament teachings of our Lord God and Savior, Jesus Christ, what in particular bothers you about it?

If we knew in what country you lived in (and what region or state), perhaps we could locate a nearby parish for you.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Barbara
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Re: Non-Christian Inquirer

Post by Barbara »

A smart man, fschmidt. Are you of German extraction - or a national of Germany ?

Regardless, welcome here and please feel free to say what you think ! You sound like an original thinker which is greatly valuable. Only such people will find their way to True Orthodoxy. Individuals who run with the crowd usually can not understand any of this.

I hope that any parish you can find to attend would be understanding and not pressure you. That would be wisest for them, for you could be a great help for a TOC community. You have the courage of your convictions, which a major asset to any parish. Especially since you are circumspect enough to know not to argue about the points with which you differ from True Orthodoxy. In time, you may be able to reconcile beliefs which clash with your own.

No matter what, you should be able to attend all the Divine Liturgies. That is very important for the soul and uplifting. Ours are more pure by far than the ones of World Orthodoxy. We commemorate not the pseudo-figures like EP [ that's Greek ] Bartholomew and Patriarch Kirill of Russia, but our own hierarchs who are confessing correctly. Thus our Liturgies are not tarnished by the constant mentions of these World Orthodox leaders. The Moscow Patriarchate of today is not even real. It was a fake organization founded and run by the KGB>

Our TOC services will be far less glamorous, have far less fancy choirs ; but they have an integrity which it sounds like you will appreciate from what you have written.
You won't be able to receive Holy Communion but all things come along fine with the passage of time.

It is remarkable that you have worked so hard on this : enough to have memorized 2/3 of the Liturgy ! That is an achievement.

fschmidt
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Re: Non-Christian Inquirer

Post by fschmidt »

Thank you all for the kind greeting. But let me clarify a few things.

I have nothing against the Nicene Creed, but it does clearly express Christian belief and I am not Christian, so it would be wrong for me to say it. And this is what I meant by "I can honestly repeat about 2/3 of the Orthodox liturgy". I meant that I could repeat this without violating my beliefs. (I haven't memorized it, unfortunately my memory isn't so good.)

I am ethnically jewish. My father's father was from Germany (hence the name) but the rest of my family is from Hungary. My father's family was part of the Hungarian upper class with virtually no connection to Judaism. And I grew up in America with a mix of upper class European values and American values, and almost no exposure to Judaism. As an adult, I spent a year attending Orthodox synagogue just to learn what Judaism is about, and I don't really like it.

I currently live in El Paso which can't sustain a True Orthodox church. I am thinking of moving to the Philadelphia area. That should be able to sustain a church but I don't think there are any there. My vague thinking right now is to look into the idea of funding a new church, which I have the resources to do.

I think I should provide some more background. Since I am passionate about the Old Testament, I have used to the internet to find other men who share my view, and we read the Old Testament together weekly. We also work together in business since I believe in only taking as partners people who share my core values. We are currently scattered but I would like us to move together eventually. Even though we aren't Christian, most of our wives will be. My wife is from a Catholic background. We are sympathetic to traditional Christianity and would like our wives to remain Christian, and our children to grow up in a Christian environment.

As a non-Christian, I am more interested in praxis/works than in issues of theology. As a simple example, men and women should be separated in church (or in any religion). And people should dress decently. These aren't so much issues of theology as just plain traditional common sense. Any church that puts traditional common sense over modern fashion has my support.

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Barbara
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Re: Non-Christian Inquirer

Post by Barbara »

Thanks so much for explaining more, fschmidt. Most people don't do a very good job of presenting who they are and how they feel. So this is certainly appreciated by members here.

I figured when you said you only believe in the Old Testament that you MAY be Jewish. You are discerning, since you were turned off by the synagogue year. I am glad you didn't stay longer there ! Brainwashing - especially anti-Christian in nature - might have caused confusion for you if you stayed too long. Happy you got away from that darkness !

Well why is El Paso unsuitable for a TOC Church ?
In general it seems Texas is a difficult area for Orthodoxy, at least the version here which is more conservative. But would be viewed as more wacky by those indoctrinated Protestants and Evangelicals who seem to predominate in Texas, despite the fact that it was originally Catholic due to the Spanish conquest of that area.

However, we have the sharp Fr Irineos on our forum who has the St Andrew Mission in Austin. This proves that it is not impossible to forge a path for True Orthodoxy in the Lone Star state.

What is in Pennsylvania that is taking you there ? Why don't you and your wife come to Idaho and we can found a parish here, where True Orthodoxy is badly needed ? I mean REALLY badly. I was telling another member recently that I am shocked to drive around and see that there is a Mormon 'temple' on almost every street corner ! They are monstrous buildings, modern in style.

The Protestant places of worship are usually much more humble, though there are a few swank super-complexes. Still the LDS buildings dwarf nearly all others, as the edifices are so spread out and topped by unsightly spires barren of a Cross at the top, think of that ! All of them look the same architecturally, too, with minor differences in style and color. The manufacture of these LDS behemoths appears to be a cooky cutter operation.

So to counter that heavy influence and to give people who have never heard of Orthodoxy a choice, a beautiful golden-domed Russian Orthodox little Church nestled on a hillside would catch everyone's attention.

Image
I found this example on a site for desktop images. It is the Cathedrale de la Exaltation de la Sainte Croix in Geneva, Switzerland [ Rocor-Mp ]. Moorish arches add a colorful architectural motif, reminiscent of some of the Cathedrals in Andalusia, south of Spain.

A jewel even a tiny bit resembling this would create a stream of the curious, some of whom might turn into inquirers. Of course a Priest, a Deacon, altar servers, and a small choir would be needed to be found or sent.

But if you are the one who is financing and helping organize this, you could select a TOC Priest yourself. One who would be tolerant of your ideas and patiently teach you at your own pace.

There could be a strict code of dress for men and women, who would stand on separate sides of the Church. I am sure you agree with that !

Well, what do you think ?

fschmidt
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Re: Non-Christian Inquirer

Post by fschmidt »

I am actually glad for having attended orthodox synagogue. Orthodox Judaism hasn't changed since Jesus's time when they were called Pharisees. So orthodox synagogue gives a good view of the kind of issues that Jesus faced. This helped me understand the New Testament. This video gives a good explanation of these issues:

I visited St Andrew Mission in Austin. I wish them luck but they are in a challenging situation. They are very small and I don't think the local population is ideal for conversion. I think the ideal population would contain some Orthodox and many Catholics. Having at least a few laity raised in the Orthodox tradition is valuable for setting the tone for the rest. And I think Catholics would make the best converts. That is actually the situation in my local Greek Orthodox church. If only the priest was True Orthodox, it would be ideal. But El Paso is small with few Orthodox, so can only sustain 2 churches. I don't think a third Orthodox church would make it here. But Philadelphia has a bigger Orthodox population and plenty of Catholics. And it has no True Orthodox church that I know of. So it seems promising.

Besides that, I have some personal reasons for picking Philadelphia. My wife wants to move to a bigger city. And the other members of my Old Testament group would be more likely to move to Philadelphia than to El Paso.

I will start contacting True Orthodox groups to see which is the best fit.

Agios_Irineos
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Re: Non-Christian Inquirer

Post by Agios_Irineos »

fschmidt wrote:

I visited St Andrew Mission in Austin. I wish them luck but they are in a challenging situation. They are very small and I don't think the local population is ideal for conversion.

We enjoyed your visit. Best of luck on your search!

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