irene777 wrote:Also, how do you view the Church now and the claim that the gates of Hades will never prevail against the Church, while still maintaining the Church is a physical thing, the ark of salvation? Thanks!
Sorry, I forgot to respond to your final point, Irene. First of all, we have to answer the question of what the Church is--especially because all the disorder we see around us now, not just among TOCs or World Orthodoxy vis-a-vis the heterodox, but among Protestants themselves, is largely due to the fact that many do not adhere clearly and in practice to the teaching of the Holy Fathers on the nature of the Church: that in It's holiness, apostolicity, and catholicity, it must also, and just as importantly, remain visibly One, both in the visible here and now, and also one with the Church of centuries past. The World Orthodox are not the Historic Orthodox Church anymore, because they have denied the dogmatic truths that councils and saints, chiefly St Mark of Ephesus the "Pillar of Orthodoxy", sought to preserve and protect and confessed correctly and thus were declared saints by the Holy Spirit that dwells in the Church and speaks through Her. The World Orthodox, I would be remiss here for failing to say, have many among their ranks who are exemplary in life and much that they say, and for that matter, as do also many of the Protestant Evangelicals who were my fellows in my youth. They cannot be faulted for the good they do and truth that they say, and even suffer many things because they oppose ungodliness in secular society around them. I think they shall receive a reward and blessing from God for this, and they do in large measure even in this life, when one observes their well ordered families, obedient children, well-adjusted lives, and godly conduct. But all of this is not the measure and rule by which we discern the identity of the One Holy Apostolic, and Catholic Church. It is the guidance we receive from the body of honoured writings of the Holy Fathers, the Holy Canons, and the examples we have in the lives of the Saints, particularly in their words and manner of relationship towards those judged to be heretics outside of both the Church and of the divine grace of genuine Mysteries.
I realise all this comes as a bit of a shock. I was an evangelical convert to the New Calendarist Orthodox Church. After some time, I would come across writings and even meet people who were Old Calendarists and thought the claims they made about the heretical nature of some of our bishops and priests and seminary professors was unbelievable and could not be taken too seriously. Then as time wore on and I observed how our priest invited a Catholic priest to the altar (he was the brother of one of our much loved church members in the choir) on pascha and dressed him in an Orthodox style rassa and he prayed with our priest for the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the gifts on the altar (this among other such infractions), I began to realise with a deepening dismay and alarm that things were not nearly as far removed from crisis level betrayals of the Faith as I had thought. Especially as I became more and more widely read in the lives and teachings of the saints regarding how we ought to view the Latin and Protestant heretics--namely that we were forbidden to pray with them, much less declare their "sacraments," such as baptism, to be "one and the same" with our own Holy Orthodox Baptism (see quotes and reference below). But this is exactly the dogmatic confession declared in writing and jointly signed by representatives of the Pope and Orthodox bishops at Balamand in Syria as well as confirmed even more firmly by North American Catholics and Orthodox in an agreed statement (see below). I ask you, in what universe can you imagine Saint Mark of Ephesus calling these worthless men who did this thing, his brothers? NO. He would have decried them as heretical apostates who, rather than bringing the Latins into the Church had cut themselves out of the Life that is alone dispensed by the One True Orthodox Church. It is a point beyond contention, that if you read the writings of the Holy Fathers of Oldtime right up until the Russian Revolution, you find their language toward heresy and heretics "fanatical and extreme" by modern standards and sentiments so thoroughly trained in ecumenistic notions of so-called "love," "respect," "human descency," and so forth. The holy fathers declare that if our "love" convinces the heretic that his heresy is sufficient for his salvation that this is not love but hatred, no matter how good, kind and gentle such a gesture towards the heretics may appear. Love is to labour to free the misguided out of heresy into the correct teaching of the Church and into Her nurturing embrace.
The True Church of Jesus Christ, will remain undivided upon the earth until He comes a second time. However, Christ himself indicates that at the time of His second advent the members will be few indeed, for the "whole world will worship the beast and receive the number of his infernal name", and Christ also said, "When the Son of Man returns, will He find the Faith upon the earth?" --meaning that they who hold fast to the faith unchanged and hold no communion with heretics who deny that faith, will be few indeed at the end of the Age.
I hope that this answers your question.
By the mercy of God,
Matthew
Notes
Balamand Declaration:
Six years later, in Balamand, Lebanon, the now famous “Balamand Agreement” was formulated. Among its declarations, the claim of a “common baptism” stood out, and under the shadow of the importance of Vatican II:
13) . . . since the Pan-Orthodox Conferences and the Second Vatican Council, the rediscovery and the giving again of proper value to the Church as communion, both on the part of Orthodox and of Catholics, has radically altered perspectives and thus attitudes. On each side it is recognized that what Christ has entrusted to His Church—profession of apostolic faith, participation in the same sacraments, above all the one priesthood celebrating the one sacrifice of Christ, the apostolic succession of bishops—cannot be considered the exclusive property of one of our Churches. In this context it is clear that rebaptism must be avoided.
The previous article makes these comments on the quotation below from the Agreed Statement:
Metropolitan Maximos, Bishop Demetrios of Xanthou, Fr. Alexander Golitzin [now Bishop (OCA)—ed.], Fr. Alkiviadis Calivas, Professor John Erickson and others were among the Orthodox representatives who signed the Agreed Statement of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation on “Baptism and Sacramental Economy.” Issued in 1999, it was an attempt to answer critics of the Balamand Agreement as well as to issue a critique of sacramental economy. Besides labeling St. Nikodemos the Athonite an “innovator” for his contribution to the Church’s tradition regarding economy, the Consultation stated the following:
North American Catholic and Orthodox Agreed Statement made at the OCA's St. Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary in Crestwood NY in 1999:
C. The Results of our Investigation: "We Confess One Baptism"
The Orthodox and Catholic members of our Consultation acknowledge, in both of our traditions, a common teaching and a common faith in one baptism, despite some variations in practice which, we believe, do not affect the substance of the mystery. We are therefore moved to declare that we also recognize each other's baptism as one and the same. This recognition has obvious ecclesiological consequences. The Church is itself both the milieu and the effect of baptism, and is not of our making. This recognition requires each side of our dialogue to acknowledge an ecclesial reality in the other, however much we may regard their way of living the Church's reality as flawed or incomplete. In our common reality of baptism, we discover the foundation of our dialogue, as well as the force and urgency of the Lord Jesus' prayer "that all may be one." Here, finally, is the certain basis for the modern use of the phrase, "sister churches." At the same time, since some are unwilling to accept this mutual recognition of baptism with all its consequences, the following investigation and explanation seems necessary.
Sources:
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/80888.html
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachi ... conomy.cfm
