Is World Orthodoxy graceless? Why become True Orthodox?

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irene777
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Is World Orthodoxy graceless? Why become True Orthodox?

Post by irene777 »

Hello...Please forgive me if my post is off-topic but it seems as good any time to chime in. I converted to Orthodoxy about 5.5. years ago and even before my baptism I was confused by Patriarch Bartholomew. I asked my priest about him and his actions and didn't get a direct answer, but I do know that now that are some who are confused about him and concerned for his actions and there was even a petition regarding it. Its obvious that the calendar issue in the 1920s started a host of other problems and I actually agree with most of what the criticism of World Orthodoxy is...when I have expressed concern to someone, I am reminded of the time of iconoclasm when almost all of the Orthodox Church went along with that or when Bishops treated St. John Chrystostom poorly, etc. but it still remained the Orthodox Church, so we too need to hang on...thats what I am told. It does make sense, but if a bunch of Orthodox Christians from World Orthodoxy started really speaking up about certain things, that would make a lot of sense too...but how does the "True Orthodox" view themselves?...Do you view yourselves as like the catacomb church of Russia during the time of Communism? I understand the criticism of World Orthodoxy but at the same time, I don't understand how it can be graceless? I have experienced much grace in my time being Orthodox (as compared to my previous life as Protestant)...but I do believe there will be a time when there is going to another kind of "schism", perhaps just associated with the general apostasy of the last days...Without World Orthodoxy and even Ancient Faith Radio (though some of the recent content is really pushing some boundaries), many would not be Orthodox and it is perhaps may be where many "True Orthodox" are called to be for the time being...?

I guess how does the True Orthodox view themselves and how are you sure you are called to separate in this way? What about all of the people being converted to World Orthodoxy (especially Protestant converts) that would never hear of Orthodoxy without it? How do the True Orthodox view Father Seraphim Rose? He was in ROCOR and chose not to become True Orthodox...My tone is one of sincere curiosity and interest in this..Thank you very much, Irene

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Maria
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Re: Is World Orthodoxy graceless? Why become True Orthodox?

Post by Maria »

Welcome, Irene.

I have moved your post over into Inquiring into Orthodoxy, so that all your questions may be answered by our members.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Maria
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Re: Is World Orthodoxy graceless? Why become True Orthodox?

Post by Maria »

Pat. Bartholomew:

I was also in the Greek Orthodox Church under Patriarch Bartholomew for a time and also sojourned in the OCA while attending college.

The priests in World Orthodoxy also told me to hang in there and to pray for Patriarch Bartholomew. However, my views of World Orthodoxy began to deteriorate rapidly when the priests in GOARCH and in the OCA told me that unity with the Roman Catholics was probably going to happen sometime before 2025. When I asked about all the heresies that Rome has, they said that they were just misunderstandings and that the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) was free of heresy. Even Father Thomas Hopko joined in to praise the CCC.

The ecumenistic Roman heresy that the three major religions worship the same One God of Abraham:

The CCC teaches that the one God of Abraham is worshiped in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. And again, Father Thomas Hopko of the OCA said this was true at a retreat I attended in the early 2000s. This puzzled me as Moslems and Jews not only do not worship the Triune Godhead, but also deny the Holy Trinity. Furthermore, they deny that Christ is God, so how can we all be worshiping the same God?

My theological and Bible studies in college had only been survey courses. However, last year in 2014, I studied in depth, the chapter of Genesis through Living Waters. We Orthodox Christians use the Septuagint Old Testament, which is many centuries older than the Masoretic text used by the Jews as that text was translated after 200 A.D. Furthermore, Christ referred to the Septuagint text which had been translated by 70 rabbis from the Hebrew into the Greek when they were assembled together in Egypt.

Anyway, the Triune Godhead appeared to Abraham at the Oak of Mamre in the form of three angels. Even during the time of Christ, Christ's teachings of the Trinity were accepted by His Apostles and Disciples because faithful Jews believed in the Holy Trinity and in the Resurrection of the Dead. At Christ's Holy Baptism by St. John the Forerunner, the Spirit appeared as a Dove and the Father's voice was heard, "This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased."

At the beginning of Genesis, the Creator-God, Who is Christ, said, "Let us create man in our own image." Why did Christ use the plural "our" to refer to God? And Who was He talking with? Christ-God was not talking to Himself, nor was He talking with Adam, the first man, as Adam had not yet been created. Christ was referring to the Triune Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Genesis is rich with references to the Holy Trinity, so this is really not the place to go into all the proofs. However, if you want a great book to study, please purchase Genesis, Creation and Early Man by the late Father Seraphim Rose of Platina, California.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

irene777
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Re: Is World Orthodoxy graceless? Why become True Orthodox?

Post by irene777 »

Thanks for your post - I'm familiar with that book, I haven't read it but I have read the synopsis of it though in the biography. Actually, it was at a previous Orthodox Church than I am at now where I first learned that as Christians we don't share the same God as Jews and the Islamic religion (as a Protestant, I thought that we did share the same)...so I learned the correct thing there actually, but I'm sure there are people saying something else, but the majority of Orthodox Christians, that I know at least, would agree with the correct view on that. On that issue, it would seem that doctrine hasn't changed, but there could be some priests hinting at something else, like they are on several other issues, but which doesn't change anything about the Church yet.

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Re: Is World Orthodoxy graceless? Why become True Orthodox?

Post by Barbara »

Welcome, too, Irene. I hope you will bring added Peace to the Forum like your name !

ROCOR WAS essentially True Orthodox. That topic is debated [ several threads here probably ], but there is no question that Rocor is the precursor of the Russian TOC Synods, all of them.

Thus Fr Seraphim [Rose] did not need to leave ROCOR for any reason during his life. He reposed a few years before the Saint, Metropolitan Philaret of ROCOR, did in 1985. Thus the Platina hieromonk did not see any of the changes which gradually took place toward the end of the primacy of Metropolitan Vitaly. Not to mention the rapid, alarming ones which happened under Met Vitaly's successor [ by force ], Met Laurus which steered Rocor directly into the arms of the wolf, the MP.

Greek Old Calendarists mostly claim succession from ROCOR, too. The GOC of Abp Kallinikos is a major synod which predated the splits off from Rocor due to the willingness to go into subservience to The Enemy. So, fr Seraphim had nothing much to do with the GOC - K, as he was solidly in the Russian Church Abroad.

It was Fr Herman who convinced him of the importance of anti-Communism. Others disagree or disdain the role of Fr Herman [Podmoshensky]. I believe from reading through the material available that Fr Herman's great gift of 'gab' and power of persuasion impressed upon the young Eugene Rose that the only option was to join the Church which FOUGHT Communism and the Moscow Patriarchate's willing enslavement to the Soviet state. Otherwise, how would Eugene have understood any of this, coming from his lifestyle and circle of the Bay Area "Babylon" ? Quite the opposite end of the political spectrum.

Any American convert who understood the need to stand up against the Soviet Union should have experienced not even a ripple of worry about which jurisdiction to join. It was obvious : one MUST go to ROCOR if one understood this most vital international issue affecting life in almost all corners of the planet from 1917 up through very recent times.

St John Maximovitch would have schooled the future Seraphim in Church doctrine, and the religious side. But the political side of anti-Soviet ideology was surely inculcated by the future Fr Herman, laying the groundwork for St John's spiritual teachings about Russian and other Saints, etc.

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Re: Is World Orthodoxy graceless? Why become True Orthodox?

Post by Matthew »

:)

Hello Irene, and welcome!

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                First, to answer your question about how TOCs view ourselves and why we feel that we have not overreacted by separating ourselves from World Orthodoxy, I would like to begin by linking to a post I made a month ago or so [go to: [url]http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11531&p=66572#p66572[/url] ] where I explain why (among many other reasons) we cannot be genuinely Orthodox Christians and remain in communion with Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew. I think the answer shows that what is at stake is nothing less vital than the preservation of Dogma and the correct confession of the words of the Nicene Creed. Many today continue the practice of reciting the apostolic words formulated by the Holy Church, but they do not maintain the inner meaning that was sought to be expressed by those words, but rather they interpret them in an entirely heterodox manner. 

           The Creed is a summation of dogmas or teachings essential for salvation. It touches on the nature of God in three Persons particularly the saving work of Christ and the Holy Spirit, then it confesses the dogma of the Church's true nature (outside of which there is no salvation), then the unrepeatable nature of Holy Baptism, and then it closes on the matter of Last Things, namely the bodily resurrection and the Life of the Age to Come. If one fails to rightly believe any single one of these Dogmas, they are not Catholic, not Orthodox, and indeed, not Christian. These are the basics, the minimal essential teachings one must believe in correctly to have some measure of assurance of salvation. There is One Faith, and One Hope, and One Baptism, it is written in Scripture. But the World Orthodox, as you and Maria have pointed out, now [b][u][i][color=#400000]maintain communion[/color][/i][/u][/b] [b][see quote below] with some very modernist bishops and other notable renovationist members who publicly teach with impunity that the True God is worshipped by Jews, muslims, and all heterodox Christians; and they suppose all heterodox to be rightfully regarded as the children of God despite their huge dogmatic differences with the Holy Church. 

                 I remember when I was in Religious Studies at university our protestant professor told the class that "all monotheistic religions worship the same God and have access to Him (Her, It)". So I commented to him, "But professor, if you had an Orthodox Jew, an Orthodox Muslim, and an Orthodox Christian at the same table together, the one thing you could be sure to find them in full agreement on was that neither of the other two worshiped the True God." He then said, "Oh but they would just be the extremists of those religions!" Oh, right, so now it is the innovators and modernists, and liberals who are the authentic traditionalists, and the Orthodox versions of all of those are the "fringe extremists who distort their own traditions". Yeah, right! Tell me another one." Anyhow, in the same course on Early Church History he tried to make the claim that all the Ante-Nicene Fathers were modalists -- that God is not three persons but one person who has three masks that he puts on at different times, a Father Mask, a Son Mask, and a Holy Spirit mask, creating the illusion of Trinity, but that Christians are authentic only when they are more like the Jews and Muslims who insist that the Trinity is a false doctrine and that God is One Person only. I countered this claim in class by pointing out how clearly and extensively the Early Christians write about the Trinity of Persons in the Oneness of the Godhead, such as St Athasius, and others, and they are abundantly clear on the exclusivity of the worship of God as being the sole property of those who hold to right belief in Him, and that if one wants to be a "child of God" and a worshipper and believer in God, he cannot deny the Trinity. And he, in a kind of desperate, imperitive manner, said, "But we HAVE to believe that the Early Christians were modalists, otherwise we will never achieve peace in the Middle East!" This, remember, was what he said in a Church HISTORY class. His PhD did nothing to stop him from allowing political agendas in the 1990s to determine what Early Christians of the first 3 centuries must necessarily have believed. Brilliant! Clearly, this Doctor of Church History, as well as those in World Orthodoxy who are of like mind with him, would have condemned Saint Theodosius of the Kiev Caves who said:[/b]

“Beware, my son, of heretics and all their talking, for our land too, has become filled with them! If anyone will save his soul, it will be only through life in the Orthodox Faith. For there is no better faith, than our Holy Orthodox Faith. My son, it is not meet to praise another’s faith. Whoever praises an alien faith is like a detractor of his own Orthodox Faith. If anyone should praise his own and another’s faith, then he is a man of dual faith and is close to heresy. If anyone should say to you: “your faith and our faith is from God”, you, my son, should reply: “Heretic! do you consider God to be of two faiths? Don’t you hear what the Scriptures say: “One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism” (Eph. 4,5). Thus, my son, beware of such people and always stand up for your Faith. Do not fraternize with them, but avoid them and pursue your own Faith with good deeds!” “My son, even if there would be the need for you to die for your holy Faith, dare to embrace death! Thus the Saints died for their Faith, and now they are alive in Christ.”

St. Theodosius of the Kiev Caves Lavra (+1074)
[From his “Testament” to the Great Prince Izyaslav of Kiev (1054-1068) whom the Papists attempted to convert to their delusion) contained in: I.P. Yeremin, “The Literary Heritage of Theodosius of the Kiev Caves Lavra”, TODRL, 1947, vol. 5, p. 171-172.]

Anyhow, I hope that the post I have linked to above, and what I have written here can give you a fairly clear idea of why we are not separating ourselves from the World Orthodox communion on the basis of trifles, or questionable issues, or non-essentials in any way. This is not a sufficient amount but I hope it will whet your appetite to look into these matters more.

By the mercy of God,
Matthew



P.S. Oh and the quote I referenced above...Very important. Here it is:

“The heretics were totally shipwrecked with regard to the Faith; but as for the others, even if in their thinking they did not founder, nevertheless, because of their communion with heresy they are perishing.”

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                  St. Theodore the Studite  [Patrologia Graeca 99, 1164]

And actually here are a few other pearls from the Fathers on the truthfulness of the Genuine Orthodox Church and the need to have no communion with ecumenist bishops, directly, or indirectly, and that in the One Church alone is there salvation.

“Even if one should give away all his possessions in the world, and yet be in communion with heresy, he cannot be a friend of God, but is rather an enemy.”

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                   St. Theodore the Studite (PG 99, 1205)

“Chrysostomos loudly declares not only heretics, but also those who have communion with them, to be enemies of God.”

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                   St. Theodore the Studite [Epistle to Abbot Theophilus ]

“Guard yourselves from soul-destroying heresy, communion with which is alienation from Christ.”

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                   St. Theodore the Studite [P.G. 99.1216.]

“As for all those who pretend to confess sound Orthodox Faith, but are in communion with people who hold a different opinion, if they are forewarned and still remain stubborn, you must not only not be in communion with them, but you must not even call them brothers.”

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                 St. Basil the Great, Archbishop of Caesaria in Cappodocia (*Patrologia Orientalis*, Vol. 17, p. 303)

“We know that salvation itself is a property of the One Church, and that no one can be outside of the catholic Church and yet share the Faith of Christ, or be saved...Neither do we offer any part of that hope to the ungodly heretics, but we place them entirely outside of that hope; indeed, they have not the least participation in Christ, but vainly assume for themselves that saving Name.”
St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople (4th Century AD) [Migne P. G. 59:725]

“Another thing the blessed man taught and insisted upon with all was never on any occasion whatsoever to associate with heretics and, above all, never to take the Holy Communion with them, ‘even if’, the blessed man said, ‘you remain without communicating all your life, if through stress of circumstances you cannot find a community of the catholic Church. For if, having legally married a wife in this world of the flesh, we are forbidden by God and by the laws to desert her and be united to another woman, even though we have to spend a long time separated from her in a distant country, and shall incur punishment if we violate our vows, how then shall we, who have been joined to God through the Orthodox faith and the catholic Church -- as the apostle says: ‘I espoused you to one husband that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ’ (2 Cor. 11:2) -- how shall we escape from sharing in that punishment which in the world to come awaits heretics, if we defile the orthodox and holy faith by adulterous communion with heretics?’

“For ‘communion’, he said, ‘has been so called because he who has ‘communion’ has things in common and agrees with those with whom he has ‘communion’. Therefore I implore you earnestly, children, never to go near the oratories of the heretics in order to communicate there.’”

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                  St. John the Almsgiver, Patriarch of Alexandria (7th Century AD) 
                  [Three Byzantine Saints, “The Life of Saint John the Almsgiver”, Translators: Elizabeth Dawes & Norman H. Baynes, 
                  St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, Crestwood: 1977; p. 251]

“‘But if,’ they say, ‘we had devised some middle ground between the dogmas (of the Papists and the Orthodox), then thanks to this we would have united with them and accomplished our business superbly, without at all having been forced to say anything except what corresponds to custom and has been handed down (by the Fathers).’ This is precisely the means by which many, from of old, have been deceived and persuaded to follow those who have led them off the steep precipice of impiety; believing that there is some middle ground between the two teachings that can reconcile obvious contradictions, they have been exposed to peril.”

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                  St. Mark of Ephesus, “Encyclical Letter” (see Orthodox Word , March-April-May, 1967)]

“Several brothers once visited Abba Agathon, for they had been informed that he was possessed of great spiritual discretion. And wishing to test him, to see if he would become angry, they said: “Are you Agathon? We have heard about you that you are debauched and proud.” He replied, “Yes, it is so.” They said to him once more, “Are you Agathon the loose-tongued lover of slander?” “I am he,” he responded. And the visitors spoke to him a third time, “You are Agathon, the heretic?” To this, he answered, “I am not a heretic.” After this answer, they asked him to explain: “Why, when we called you so many things, did you admit them, while you would not, however, endure the accusation that you were a heretic?” And the Abba said to them: “The first things I accepted since they were beneficial for my soul; but not the accusation that I am a heretic, since heresy is separation from God.” On hearing this reply, the visitors marvelled at the spiritual discretion of the Abba and departed, benefitted in soul.”

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                  Abba Agathon, Desert Father 
                  [ The Evergetinos: A Complete Text , Translatored by Hm. Patapios & Bp. Auxentios, CTOS: 
                  Etna, CA, 1999; Bk. II, Vol. I, Hypothesis II, p.44]

“Heresy separates every man from the Church.”

Seventh Holy Ecumenical Council
[Mansi, Vol. xii, col. 1022cd; Praktika, Vol. II, p. 733a (First Session)]

“The universal [catholic] Church is a great paradise...and should anyone be found in the Church ailing with heretical error from the teaching of the serpent...then he is cast out of this paradise, even as Adam was cast out from the paradise [of old].”

St. John Chrysostom
[PG 59:545CD]

“‘There is one Lord, one Faith, one baptism’ [Eph. 4:5], and this is what we believe with all our soul, with all our heart, and with all our mind, that there is salvation in none other than in Jesus Christ the Nazerene [cf. Acts 4:10-12]. And this is what we piously believe and follow. And we recognize that works without true doctrine are not accepted by God, neither is true doctrine without works accepted by God. For what profit is it, to know well the doctrines concerning God, and yet to be a vile fornicator? And again, what profit is it, to be nobly temperate, and an impious blasphemer? A most precious possession therefore is the knowledge of doctrines: also there is need of a wakeful soul, since there are many that make spoil through philosophy and vain deceit. The Greeks on the one hand draw men away by their smooth tongue, for honey droppeth from a harlot’s lips: whereas they of the Circumcision deceive those who come to them by means of the Divine Scriptures, which they miserably misinterpret though studying them from childhood to all age, and growing old in ignorance. But the children of heretics, by their good words and smooth tongue, deceive the hearts of the innocent, disguising with the name of Christ as it were with honey the poisoned arrows of their impious doctrines: concerning all of whom together the Lord saith, Take heed lest any man mislead you. This is the reason for the teaching of the Creed and for expositions upon it.”

St. Cyril, Archbishop Of Jerusalem
[ Catechetical Lectures - Lecture 4: On Ten Points Of Doctrine]

“I therefore, yet not I, but the love of Jesus Christ, entreat you that ye use Christian nourishment only, and abstain from herbage of a different kind; I mean heresy. For heretics mix up Jesus Christ with their own poison, speaking things which are unworthy of credit, like those who administer a deadly drug in sweet wine, which he who is ignorant of does greedily take, with a fatal pleasure leading to his own death.”

St. Ignatius the Godbearer, Hieromartyr of Antioch [Epistle to the Trallians ]

“Just as the fishermen hide the hook with bait and covertly hook the fish, similarly, the crafty allies of the heresies cover their evil teachings and corrupt understanding with pietism and hook the more simple, bringing them to spiritual death”

St. Isidore of Pelusium [Letter to Timothy the Reader, Patrologia Graeca 78, 252C]

In The Spiritual Meadow of St. John Moschus, we read:

“Once a monk called Theophan came to see the great elder Kyriakos...” (He tells the elder that in his country he is in contact with Nestorians whereupon) “the elder begins to try to convince the monk of his error and to pray that he abandon that fatal heresy and join himself to the holy catholic and apostolic Church.”

“‘It is impossible to be saved (‘without right belief).’” (The monk is interested and the elder offers him his cell saying:)

“‘I have hope that God in His mercy will reveal the truth to you.’”

“And leaving the monk in his cave, the elder set out for the Dead Sea, praying for the monk as he went. And indeed the next day about the ninth hour the monk sees someone, strange in appearance, who says to him, ‘Come and find out the truth.’ And taking him he leads him to a gloomy, stinking place emitting flames and shows him Nestorius and Theodore (of Mopsuestia), Eutyches and Apollonarius, Evagrius and Didymus, Dioscorus and Severus, Arius and Origen, and others. And pointing at them he says to the monk, ‘That is the place prepared for heretics and those who taught falsely about the Mother of God and those who follow their teachings. If you do not want to taste the same punishment turn to the holy catholic and apostolic Church to which the elder who is instructing you belongs. I tell you: even though a man be adorned with all the works of charity, but does not have right belief he will find himself in that place.’

“With these words the monk came to himself. When the elder returned the monk told him everything that he had seen and in a short time joined himself to the holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. Staying in the monastery of Kalamon he lived with the elder for some years and died in peace.””

St. John Moscus [Spiritual Meadow ; cited in “Commentary on the Latest Recommendations of the ‘Joint Commision
For Theological Dialogue Between the Orthodox And Oriental Churches’”, Orthodox Life, vol. 42, no. 3 (May-June 1991),
pp. 5-18.; quotation appears on p. 17]

irene777
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Re: Is World Orthodoxy graceless? Why become True Orthodox?

Post by irene777 »

Hi Matthew,
Thanks for your post...(unfortunately, I couldn't get through all of the quotes at the end just now, but maybe later.) I am familiar with sayings like this and the importance of not having communion with "heretics", but at this time, don't we just have heretical people in the Church but nothing in the Church has changed yet, no doctrines have changed still right? So wouldn't a lot of those things apply when someone is trying to change doctrine, but most people are doing things more "covertly" to undermine the Church, without creating something "big enough" to cause a big enough stir, but definitely causing harm to people's souls. Also, how do you view the Church now and the claim that the gates of Hades will never prevail against the Church, while still maintaining the Church is a physical thing, the ark of salvation? Thanks!

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