When did Rome start venerating statues?

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joasia
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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by joasia »

seekermark66 wrote:

If you read Eusebius's Church History (4th cent.) he recounts familiarity with statues used in Christian art/worship and does not judge them to be heretical or improper. Obviously, they are not acceptable in Orthodoxy, but neither are they a post-schism innovation.

I have his book. It's been a while since I read it. The part I see is Chapter 7:18. His comment: This statue , which was said to resemble the features of Jesus was still there in my own time, so I saw it with my own eyes when I resided in the city. It is not all surprising that Gentiles who long ago received such benefits from our Saviour should have expressed their gratitude thus, for the features of His Apostles Paul and Peter, and indeed of Christ Himself, have been preserved in colored portraits which I have examined. How could it be otherwise, when the ancients habitually followed their own Gentile custom of honouring them as saviours in this uninhibited way?

Here he is describing pagans who express their gratitude with their view of art. The statue resembled "the features" of Christ. Why didn't he say that the statue is the image of Jesus Christ? Why would he call them Gentiles?

Here is another excerpt where he talks about the Christians ( 8:11): But why need I tell a long story, piling up examples of the victories won by devoted martyrs all over the world, especially those who were attacked now not under common law but as enemies in ware? For example a little Christian town in Phrygia was encircled by legionaries, who set it on fire and completely destroyed it, along with the entire population - men, women, children - as they called on Almighty God. And why? Because all the inhabitants of the town without exception - the Mayor himself and the magistrates, with all the officials and the whole populace - declared themselves Christians and absolutely refused to obey the command to commit idolatry.

Compare the two descriptions. The first sounds like he's talking about people who had reverence for Christ and expressed it with how they could with their pagan knowledge. The second, he talks about them as Christians. If the first example is meant to support the idea that Christians used statues, then why does he call them Gentiles? Back then they didn't call their fellow Christians Gentiles.

So, you see. I still don't see where you get the sense of Christianity as accepting statues. That would be the equivalence of us Orthodox, today, accepting the evolution lie. It just doesn't work with our faith.

There were many heresies during the early Christian days. There are people today that accuse the Church of being Gnostics. They say that the Church supported that. The Church didn't support that, but there were heretics at the time that tried to incorporate it as part of the Apostles' teachings. It doesn't mean that the Church accepted it. She fought against it.

It's one thing to say that the Church "accepted" an idea or view, but it's important to understand that there were many heretics that tried to incorporate their ideas as part of the Apostles' teachings, but they were officially anathematized.

My point is that statues were never accepted as an art form by Christians because they were always associated with idol worship. The Church never accepted them. If they were mentioned as part of art, then it was by pagans or heretics.

Reading through this book makes me want to read it again. It's really an amazing travel back into the past.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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joasia
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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

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Mark Templet wrote:

Do you realize you just made THE iconoclastic argument? This is a place where inquirers come, so tell them why your change of idolatry is valid against someone who venerates a 3-D image of Christ but a person who venerates a 2-D image is doing a holy act.

Please explain what it is that I said is iconoclastic.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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Barbara
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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by Barbara »

Not to sidetrack the discussion but wanted to mention that there have been some statues venerated in Russia, even.
One which comes to mind is that of St Nil Stolobensky. I didn't see it myself but was informed about it by a woman pilgrim who had.

So there are a few statues - not well known - which are tucked away. But not popularized either for this reason of statues being looked down upon by Orthodoxy, or just not a major factor in the spiritual life of the country.
I think few people know about this particular statue which is reportedly small.

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When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by Mark Templet »

I have no problem with a good debate, but only when we stay on topic.

Again, I am no fan of statues. However, I will be glad to discuss the historical facts and ramifications of those facts in an intellectually honest way.

Fr. Mark Templet
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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

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The off topic comments in this thread have been moved into Misc.

Please stay on topic. See the link below for those posts that have been moved.

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http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 449#p65428

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joasia
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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by joasia »

Fr. Mark,

I did ask, politely, what it is I said was iconoclastic. Please explain what historical facts you have that show that statues were in the early Church. I'm asking because I want to know. I've never heard of anything about that.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by Mark Templet »

Well, the principle arguments made by the iconoclasts was that icons where “graven images” which were prohibited by God in the Law of Moses. Now, I am sure that the Orthodox involved in this discussion know that such a charge is incorrect and how the Orthodox triumphed in this fight with the 7th Ecumenical Council.

The argument on our side is that the veneration of holy images passes over the icon and onto the prototype. Therefore, we are not worshiping pieces of wood and paint as a God as the ancient Israelites were prone to do.

My point was that your charge of idolatry with the veneration of statues is the exact same charge used against the Orthodox. The only difference is that the iconoclasts where charging it against us for 2-D images, and your charge is against 3-D images. So, how is that our position is secure in 2-D but when it passes into 3-D it is automatically idolatry?

You can see clear evidence in the catacombs of Rome that the earliest Christians used artwork to express their faith. And the evidence there shows that they did so in both 2-D and 3-D. You mainly see the 3-D sculptures on the sarcophagi of the faithful departed. Romans had a rich tradition of funerary sculpture. Others have cited examples of it in this discussion. I am not claiming that statues where used by all Christians everywhere from the beginning. But there is evidence that it was present in some of their communities.

I know of no argument from the Holy Fathers, no canons, and no logical reason occurs to me why our justification can work for 2-D and not be just as valid for 3-D. However, rather than having theological grounds to reject them, we do have ontological grounds to reject them as Orthodox Christians. We rejected statues because they can be confusing to those converting, especially from paganism. Therefore, since it could cause others to stumble we shy away from them. Then there are the failures of statues to convey the meaning that our rich iconographic tradition conveys, which I discussed earlier. Then there is also the feeling among most that since statues are a “Roman Catholic thing” we should not have them. All of this is fair enough grounds to reject the use of statues in the Orthodox Church.

We Orthodox just don’t use statues, but this is not because of a dichotomy. They are not wrong because we don’t use them, and our refusal to use them is not because they are wrong.

Believe me, I have no love for statues. I love icons. I am an amateur iconographer. I lovingly make icon boards for others as well. But to say that we have always rejected statues across the board since the beginning is not accurate.

Fr. Mark Templet
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