When did Rome start venerating statues?

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Maria
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When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by Maria »

I received this question from an inquirer:

I noticed that you know a lot about the Roman Catholic church. I have being trying unsuccessfully to ascertain when statues became widespread for veneration in their church. Maybe renaissance period or even earlier? Do you know?

I am giving the membership here a chance to respond.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Mark Templet
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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by Mark Templet »

Actually, statues have been with Christianity since the beginning. Many Orthodox might not be aware of that, but statues are as old as icons. The problem with statuary is that it lacks the ability to convey the same super-reality that can be conveyed in an icon. Three dimensions are actually more limiting that two. In an icon, for example there are no shadows and perspectives are often skewed or even unrealistic. This is on purpose and serves to illustrate the theology contained therein. Conversely, a statue must obey the laws of physics; casting shadows and maintaining a certain perspective when viewed. Additionally, historically statues are confusing to those who might be coming from a pagan background, where such man-made objects are worshiped.

This is why statues completely fell out of favor, especially in the East, and two-dimensional images became the norm.

So, it's hard to pin down an exact period of time when Rome really took to statues since they have been around from the beginning to some extent. Statues really became more prevalent in the West after the Great Schism. Probably hitting their height in popularity during the Middle Ages.

Fr. Mark Templet
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joasia
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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by joasia »

Mark Templet wrote:

Actually, statues have been with Christianity since the beginning. Many Orthodox might not be aware of that, but statues are as old as icons. The problem with statuary is that it lacks the ability to convey the same super-reality that can be conveyed in an icon. Three dimensions are actually more limiting that two. In an icon, for example there are no shadows and perspectives are often skewed or even unrealistic. This is on purpose and serves to illustrate the theology contained therein. Conversely, a statue must obey the laws of physics; casting shadows and maintaining a certain perspective when viewed. Additionally, historically statues are confusing to those who might be coming from a pagan background, where such man-made objects are worshiped.

This is why statues completely fell out of favor, especially in the East, and two-dimensional images became the norm.

So, it's hard to pin down an exact period of time when Rome really took to statues since they have been around from the beginning to some extent. Statues really became more prevalent in the West after the Great Schism. Probably hitting their height in popularity during the Middle Ages.

Statues were around when Christianity was born because pagans were around so yes statues are as old as icons. But, the Christians back then never accepted statues because it was a form of pagan worship. They rejected it from the start. To say that statues have been "with" Christianity is a mis-guided statement. Statues were never "with" (accepted) by Christians. Rome probably got more into statues after the Great Schism. They were falling away from God on many points.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

Mark Templet
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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by Mark Templet »

Statues were around when Christianity was born because pagans were around so yes statues are as old as icons. But, the Christians back then never accepted statues because it was a form of pagan worship. They rejected it from the start. To say that statues have been "with" Christianity is a mis-guided statement. Statues were never "with" (accepted) by Christians. Rome probably got more into statues after the Great Schism. They were falling away from God on many points.

First, let me say that I am in total agreement with your conclusion that statues are not acceptable to Orthodoxy. I am not in favor of them at all.

However, I must differ with the accuracy of your assertion that Christians "never accepted statues". Statues were not rejected "from the start" as you say and the historical events show that there was a progression over time of the East preferring icons over statues. There exists no Church canons that condemn statues, to my knowledge, nor are they in any way heretical. They are rejected as a matter of tradition, and for good reason as I explained in my previous post.

But to say that my points were "mis-guided" is quite unfair when one evaluates the actual history of religious art. Furthermore, I think the assertion that simply because something was practiced at some point by pagans means that it was automatically rejected by Christianity is to paint history with too broad of a brush stroke (pardon my pun). The traditions and regulation of religious art in both East and West was an evolution over the first few centuries that shaped the tradition that we have now.

I agree with you that Rome is way off the rails on many aspects and that they are absolutely heretical. However, they are not heretical because they have statues. They had statues long before the Great Schism and this was simply a point of difference between the East and West that served to fracture the Church's unity.

Joasia, if I am misguided, please correct me with the Holy Canon that prohibits the use of statues, otherwise I respectfully ask that you retract your statement that I am misguided.

Fr. Mark Templet
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joasia
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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by joasia »

Fr. Mark,

I would think that the Apostles' (and disciples') teachings against idol worship would be the strongest point. They were obeying the Second Commandment. When St. John went to Patmos, the idols fell. These idols were in the form of statues. That's just one example. Therefore, they would certainly not allow them in their churches. As for a canon, the fact that statues were never used in church since the birth of Christianity they didn't need a canon about it specifically. It was understood. Statues "fell out of favor" from the beginning.

Also, we have the Akathist of the Mother of God describing when the babe Jesus Christ fled to Egypt:

Eikos 6
Having shed the light of truth in Egypt, You expelled the darkness of falsehood; and unable to bear Your strength, O Saviour, her idols fell; and they that were set free from them cried to the Theotokos:

Rejoice, Uplifting of men. Rejoice, Downfall of demons.
Rejoice, you who trampled upon the delusion of error. Rejoice, you who censured the deceit of the idols.

However, they are not heretical because they have statues. They had statues long before the Great Schism and this was simply a point of difference between the East and West that served to fracture the Church's unity.

I just said that they got more into it after the Great Schism. Because they became heretical, they allowed statues. And of course, the heresy was a slow moving progress so, yes, they were starting to incorporate it. I don't feel the need to retract my comment, but if you can prove that statues were in the church in early Christianity, then I will be corrected accordingly.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

Mark Templet
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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by Mark Templet »

Do you realize you just made THE iconoclastic argument? This is a place where inquirers come, so tell them why your change of idolatry is valid against someone who venerates a 3-D image of Christ but a person who venerates a 2-D image is doing a holy act.

Fr. Mark Templet
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Re: When did Rome start venerating statues?

Post by Agios_Irineos »

If you read Eusebius's Church History (4th cent.) he recounts familiarity with statues used in Christian art/worship and does not judge them to be heretical or improper. Obviously, they are not acceptable in Orthodoxy, but neither are they a post-schism innovation.

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